Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 24

Thread: God hardened Pharaoh's heart

  1. #1
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    380
    Amen (Given)
    170
    Amen (Received)
    104

    God hardened Pharaoh's heart

    Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them..." (Ex 10:1)

    Does God harden people's hearts so they will not repent?

    Earlier we read that Pharaoh hardened his heart:

    "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go." (Ex 8:32)

    But was this God's doing also? Even earlier, we read:

    "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said." (Ex 8:15)

    What had the Lord said?

    "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments." (Ex 7:2-4)

    So even Pharaoh hardening his heart was God's doing, and God certainly hardened Pharaoh's heart directly, later on.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  2. #2
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    Near my best friend (see photo above)
    Faith
    Ultramontane Papist XPian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    510
    Amen (Given)
    1545
    Amen (Received)
    99
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them..." (Ex 10:1)

    Does God harden people's hearts so they will not repent?

    Earlier we read that Pharaoh hardened his heart:

    "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go." (Ex 8:32)

    But was this God's doing also? Even earlier, we read:

    "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said." (Ex 8:15)

    What had the Lord said?

    "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments." (Ex 7:2-4)

    So even Pharaoh hardening his heart was God's doing, and God certainly hardened Pharaoh's heart directly, later on.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The same result is the action of both God and man - though in utterly different ways. A bit as the Crucifixion is the action both of the Righteous God, and of unrighteous men. It seems to be very unlike the motion that domino A exerts on domino B when A falls on B to make B fall on C.

    The action of God on man is more like the action a storyteller imparts to his invented characters; the two agents are incommensurable. Strictly speaking, the human storyteller is as made-up as his characters; he and they derive their life from God.

  3. #3
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    In my house.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    12,696
    Amen (Given)
    6034
    Amen (Received)
    4616
    I think God gave Pharaoh what he wanted - God stepped in when a normal person would have faltered - He gave Pharaoh the strength he needed to do what he wanted.

  4. Amen Christianbookworm amen'd this post.
  5. #4
    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Kazakhstan
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    6,918
    Amen (Given)
    1699
    Amen (Received)
    2604
    i always leaned towards it not being literal, but Pharaoh's heart getting hard because of God's actions. similar to expressions like "he makes me so mad!"
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

  6. Amen NorrinRadd, One Bad Pig amen'd this post.
  7. #5
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    In my house.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    12,696
    Amen (Given)
    6034
    Amen (Received)
    4616
    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    i always leaned towards it not being literal, but Pharaoh's heart getting hard because of God's actions. similar to expressions like "he makes me so mad!"
    Hmm, that's not a bad point.

  8. #6
    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    North Texas
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    3,865
    Amen (Given)
    1505
    Amen (Received)
    1616
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them..." (Ex 10:1)

    Does God harden people's hearts so they will not repent?

    Earlier we read that Pharaoh hardened his heart:

    "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go." (Ex 8:32)

    But was this God's doing also? Even earlier, we read:

    "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said." (Ex 8:15)

    What had the Lord said?

    "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments." (Ex 7:2-4)

    So even Pharaoh hardening his heart was God's doing, and God certainly hardened Pharaoh's heart directly, later on.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    I think it’s altogether unwarranted to believe that God unilaterally hardens people’s hearts against himself in the first place...all the while pretending to offer them the hope of salvation! I truly believe that when God decides to harden someone’s heart, we can be sure that God wishes it didn’t have to be that way. If we look at the root word of "harden" chazaq, it's root meaning is "to strengthen" or "to make strong". As you rightly point out, Pharaoh hardened his own heart and looking at the root meaning, we see that God simply strengthened the hardness of the already hard heart of Pharaoh.

    I don't know how anyone can reconcile a God who intentionally hardens people in damnable wickedness with the biblical teaching that God “does not willing afflict, or grieve anyone” (Lam 3:33)? I also do not see how we can reconcile this belief with the clear biblical teaching that God desires everyone to turn to him (1 Tim 2:3-4; 2 Pet 3:9) and that evil flows from humans’ own hearts (Matt 15:19)? I believe that the unsurpassable love of God makes every effort to turn human hearts toward himself, but sadly, there is a point when they become hopeless (Gen 6; Rom 1:24-32 come to mind)...and it's at this point that God’s strategy changes from trying to turn their hearts towards Him....to using them in their wickedness for his own providential purposes.

    God justly responds to people’s wickedness by strengthening their resolve against him. In every instance where Scripture speaks of God hardening someone, it’s an act of judgment in response to decisions these people had already made. God simply ensures that these rebels will do what their own evil hearts desire and not alter course for their own ulterior motives.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  9. Amen Sparko, Obsidian, One Bad Pig amen'd this post.
  10. #7
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    41,379
    Amen (Given)
    3884
    Amen (Received)
    19027
    God knows all. He knew that when Moses came to him and demanded his people be let go that the Pharaoh would be stubborn and not let them go. The more Moses demanded and did miracles, the more stubborn Pharaoh got. God knew that would happen, but it had to happen that way. So by having Moses do what he did, the Pharaoh hardened his own heart in response. God saying "I will harden his heart" is just referencing the fact that God knew that the actions he and Moses would take would cause the Pharaoh to harden his heart. It wasn't a direct action.

  11. #8
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    380
    Amen (Given)
    170
    Amen (Received)
    104
    Quote Originally Posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
    The action of God on man is more like the action a storyteller imparts to his invented characters; the two agents are incommensurable.
    Or a potter and the clay (Isa. 29:16, Jer. 18:5, Rom. 9:21).

    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura
    I think God gave Pharaoh what he wanted - God stepped in when a normal person would have faltered - He gave Pharaoh the strength he needed to do what he wanted.
    In any case, God acted so that Pharaoh's heart would be hard. Pharaoh had no choice in the matter.

    It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”*Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Rom. 9:16-18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor
    i always leaned towards it not being literal, but Pharaoh's heart getting hard because of God's actions. similar to expressions like "he makes me so mad!"
    Though that would not fit the potter and clay analogy, above.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  12. #9
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    380
    Amen (Given)
    170
    Amen (Received)
    104
    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    I think it’s altogether unwarranted to believe that God unilaterally hardens people’s hearts against himself in the first place...all the while pretending to offer them the hope of salvation!
    Unless people may be brought to repentance later.

    "Make the heart of this people calloused;
    make their ears dull
    and close their eyes.
    Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts,
    and turn and be healed.”

    Then I said, “For how long, Lord?” (Isa 6:10-11)

    I truly believe that when God decides to harden someone’s heart, we can be sure that God wishes it didn’t have to be that way.
    I agree.

    I don't know how anyone can reconcile a God who intentionally hardens people in damnable wickedness with the biblical teaching that God “does not willing afflict, or grieve anyone” (Lam 3:33)? I also do not see how we can reconcile this belief with the clear biblical teaching that God desires everyone to turn to him (1 Tim 2:3-4; 2 Pet 3:9) and that evil flows from humans’ own hearts (Matt 15:19)?
    I agree, I believe God's heart is that all will repent, he even commands everyone to repent, and so I hope that God's word here will not return void (Isa 55:11), and that all will repent, even after being hardened.

    Pharaoh said, “... Now pray for me.” (Ex 8:28)

    God justly responds to people’s wickedness by strengthening their resolve against him. In every instance where Scripture speaks of God hardening someone, it’s an act of judgment in response to decisions these people had already made. God simply ensures that these rebels will do what their own evil hearts desire and not alter course for their own ulterior motives.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko
    So by having Moses do what he did, the Pharaoh hardened his own heart in response. God saying "I will harden his heart" is just referencing the fact that God knew that the actions he and Moses would take would cause the Pharaoh to harden his heart. It wasn't a direct action.
    This would again not fit the model of the potter and clay (Isa. 29:16, Jer. 18:5, Rom. 9:21).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  13. #10
    tWebber Teallaura's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    In my house.
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Female
    Posts
    12,696
    Amen (Given)
    6034
    Amen (Received)
    4616
    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    ...


    In any case, God acted so that Pharaoh's heart would be hard. Pharaoh had no choice in the matter.

    It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”*Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Rom. 9:16-18)
    ...
    Reread it. Pharaoh makes the decision multiple times before God hardens his heart.

  14. Amen Obsidian, alaskazimm amen'd this post.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •