Announcement

Collapse

Theology 201 Guidelines

This is the forum to discuss the spectrum of views within Christianity on God's foreknowledge and election such as Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism, Process Theism, Restrictivism, and Inclusivism, Christian Universalism and what these all are about anyway. Who is saved and when is/was their salvation certain? How does God exercise His sovereignty and how powerful is He? Is God timeless and immutable? Does a triune God help better understand God's love for mankind?

While this area is for the discussion of these doctrines within historic Christianity, all theists interested in discussing these areas within the presuppositions of and respect for the Christian framework are welcome to participate here. This is not the area for debate between nontheists and theists, additionally, there may be some topics that within the Moderator's discretion fall so outside the bounds of mainstream evangelical doctrine that may be more appropriately placed within Comparative Religions 101 Nontheists seeking only theistic participation only in a manner that does not seek to undermine the faith of others are also welcome - but we ask that Moderator approval be obtained beforehand.

Atheists are welcome to discuss and debate these issues in the Apologetics 301 or General Theistics 101 forum without such restrictions. Theists who wish to discuss these issues outside the parameters of orthodox Christian doctrine are invited to Unorthodox Theology 201.

Remember, our forum rules apply here as well. If you haven't read them now would be a good time.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

God hardened Pharaoh's heart

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • God hardened Pharaoh's heart

    Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them..." (Ex 10:1)

    Does God harden people's hearts so they will not repent?

    Earlier we read that Pharaoh hardened his heart:

    "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go." (Ex 8:32)

    But was this God's doing also? Even earlier, we read:

    "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said." (Ex 8:15)

    What had the Lord said?

    "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments." (Ex 7:2-4)

    So even Pharaoh hardening his heart was God's doing, and God certainly hardened Pharaoh's heart directly, later on.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  • #2
    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them..." (Ex 10:1)

    Does God harden people's hearts so they will not repent?

    Earlier we read that Pharaoh hardened his heart:

    "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go." (Ex 8:32)

    But was this God's doing also? Even earlier, we read:

    "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said." (Ex 8:15)

    What had the Lord said?

    "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments." (Ex 7:2-4)

    So even Pharaoh hardening his heart was God's doing, and God certainly hardened Pharaoh's heart directly, later on.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    The same result is the action of both God and man - though in utterly different ways. A bit as the Crucifixion is the action both of the Righteous God, and of unrighteous men. It seems to be very unlike the motion that domino A exerts on domino B when A falls on B to make B fall on C.

    The action of God on man is more like the action a storyteller imparts to his invented characters; the two agents are incommensurable. Strictly speaking, the human storyteller is as made-up as his characters; he and they derive their life from God.

    Comment


    • #3
      I think God gave Pharaoh what he wanted - God stepped in when a normal person would have faltered - He gave Pharaoh the strength he needed to do what he wanted.
      "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

      "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

      My Personal Blog

      My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

      Quill Sword

      Comment


      • #4
        i always leaned towards it not being literal, but Pharaoh's heart getting hard because of God's actions. similar to expressions like "he makes me so mad!"
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
          i always leaned towards it not being literal, but Pharaoh's heart getting hard because of God's actions. similar to expressions like "he makes me so mad!"
          Hmm, that's not a bad point.
          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

          My Personal Blog

          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

          Quill Sword

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
            Then the Lord said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them..." (Ex 10:1)

            Does God harden people's hearts so they will not repent?

            Earlier we read that Pharaoh hardened his heart:

            "But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go." (Ex 8:32)

            But was this God's doing also? Even earlier, we read:

            "But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said." (Ex 8:15)

            What had the Lord said?

            "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments." (Ex 7:2-4)

            So even Pharaoh hardening his heart was God's doing, and God certainly hardened Pharaoh's heart directly, later on.

            Blessings,
            Lee
            I think it’s altogether unwarranted to believe that God unilaterally hardens people’s hearts against himself in the first place...all the while pretending to offer them the hope of salvation! I truly believe that when God decides to harden someone’s heart, we can be sure that God wishes it didn’t have to be that way. If we look at the root word of "harden" chazaq, it's root meaning is "to strengthen" or "to make strong". As you rightly point out, Pharaoh hardened his own heart and looking at the root meaning, we see that God simply strengthened the hardness of the already hard heart of Pharaoh.

            I don't know how anyone can reconcile a God who intentionally hardens people in damnable wickedness with the biblical teaching that God “does not willing afflict, or grieve anyone” (Lam 3:33)? I also do not see how we can reconcile this belief with the clear biblical teaching that God desires everyone to turn to him (1 Tim 2:3-4; 2 Pet 3:9) and that evil flows from humans’ own hearts (Matt 15:19)? I believe that the unsurpassable love of God makes every effort to turn human hearts toward himself, but sadly, there is a point when they become hopeless (Gen 6; Rom 1:24-32 come to mind)...and it's at this point that God’s strategy changes from trying to turn their hearts towards Him....to using them in their wickedness for his own providential purposes.

            God justly responds to people’s wickedness by strengthening their resolve against him. In every instance where Scripture speaks of God hardening someone, it’s an act of judgment in response to decisions these people had already made. God simply ensures that these rebels will do what their own evil hearts desire and not alter course for their own ulterior motives.
            "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

            "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

            Comment


            • #7
              God knows all. He knew that when Moses came to him and demanded his people be let go that the Pharaoh would be stubborn and not let them go. The more Moses demanded and did miracles, the more stubborn Pharaoh got. God knew that would happen, but it had to happen that way. So by having Moses do what he did, the Pharaoh hardened his own heart in response. God saying "I will harden his heart" is just referencing the fact that God knew that the actions he and Moses would take would cause the Pharaoh to harden his heart. It wasn't a direct action.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Rushing Jaws View Post
                The action of God on man is more like the action a storyteller imparts to his invented characters; the two agents are incommensurable.
                Or a potter and the clay (Isa. 29:16, Jer. 18:5, Rom. 9:21).

                Originally posted by Teallaura
                I think God gave Pharaoh what he wanted - God stepped in when a normal person would have faltered - He gave Pharaoh the strength he needed to do what he wanted.
                In any case, God acted so that Pharaoh's heart would be hard. Pharaoh had no choice in the matter.

                It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”*Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Rom. 9:16-18)

                Originally posted by Darth Executor
                i always leaned towards it not being literal, but Pharaoh's heart getting hard because of God's actions. similar to expressions like "he makes me so mad!"
                Though that would not fit the potter and clay analogy, above.

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                  I think it’s altogether unwarranted to believe that God unilaterally hardens people’s hearts against himself in the first place...all the while pretending to offer them the hope of salvation!
                  Unless people may be brought to repentance later.

                  "Make the heart of this people calloused;
                  make their ears dull
                  and close their eyes.
                  Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
                  hear with their ears,
                  understand with their hearts,
                  and turn and be healed.”

                  Then I said, “For how long, Lord?” (Isa 6:10-11)

                  I truly believe that when God decides to harden someone’s heart, we can be sure that God wishes it didn’t have to be that way.
                  I agree.

                  I don't know how anyone can reconcile a God who intentionally hardens people in damnable wickedness with the biblical teaching that God “does not willing afflict, or grieve anyone” (Lam 3:33)? I also do not see how we can reconcile this belief with the clear biblical teaching that God desires everyone to turn to him (1 Tim 2:3-4; 2 Pet 3:9) and that evil flows from humans’ own hearts (Matt 15:19)?
                  I agree, I believe God's heart is that all will repent, he even commands everyone to repent, and so I hope that God's word here will not return void (Isa 55:11), and that all will repent, even after being hardened.

                  Pharaoh said, “... Now pray for me.” (Ex 8:28)

                  God justly responds to people’s wickedness by strengthening their resolve against him. In every instance where Scripture speaks of God hardening someone, it’s an act of judgment in response to decisions these people had already made. God simply ensures that these rebels will do what their own evil hearts desire and not alter course for their own ulterior motives.
                  Originally posted by Sparko
                  So by having Moses do what he did, the Pharaoh hardened his own heart in response. God saying "I will harden his heart" is just referencing the fact that God knew that the actions he and Moses would take would cause the Pharaoh to harden his heart. It wasn't a direct action.
                  This would again not fit the model of the potter and clay (Isa. 29:16, Jer. 18:5, Rom. 9:21).

                  Blessings,
                  Lee
                  "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                    ...


                    In any case, God acted so that Pharaoh's heart would be hard. Pharaoh had no choice in the matter.

                    It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”*Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. (Rom. 9:16-18)
                    ...
                    Reread it. Pharaoh makes the decision multiple times before God hardens his heart.
                    "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                    "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                    My Personal Blog

                    My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                    Quill Sword

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
                      Reread it. Pharaoh makes the decision multiple times before God hardens his heart.
                      Yes, but that's what I tried to address in my opening post, Pharaoh's decision was because of God's decision.

                      Blessings,
                      Lee
                      "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post

                        This would again not fit the model of the potter and clay (Isa. 29:16, Jer. 18:5, Rom. 9:21).

                        Blessings,
                        Lee
                        Honestly Lee, I don't know how you can say that. The passages themselves deny what you're implying. If you look up just a few verses there in Isaiah 29, you can see that it fits perfectly with the biblical potter/clay model. The problem seems to me to be that you think the clay is passive...I think careful reading of the Isaiah 29 and Jeremiah 18 passages show that to be a wrong assumption. Look at Is. 29:13-16


                        13And the Lord said:
                        “Because this people draw near with their mouth
                        and honor me with their lips,
                        while their hearts are far from me,
                        and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,

                        14 therefore, behold, I will again
                        do wonderful things with this people,
                        with wonder upon wonder;
                        and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
                        and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.”



                        15 Ah, you who hide deep from the Lord your counsel,
                        whose deeds are in the dark,
                        and who say, “Who sees us? Who knows us?”


                        16 You turn things upside down!
                        Shall the potter be regarded as the clay,
                        that the thing made should say of its maker,
                        “He did not make me”;
                        or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
                        “He has no understanding”?


                        This clearly refers to people whose worship of God is mere pretense, and who think that they can plan and do evil without the Lord’s knowledge or interference. Not only this passage, but in fact the other OT passages in which this type of potter-clay illustration is used (Isa. 45:1-13; 64:4-8; Jer. 18:1-10) all refer to people who are under judgment for their own false worship and disregard of God and His Law, and either imply or specifically offer restoration to those who repent (e.g., Isa. 29:17-19; 45:14, 22; 64:9-12). Jeremiah 18:6-10 clearly indicates that the “clay” is not merely passive. Look at the Jeremiah passage a little closer:


                        “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.”

                        God has sovereignly chosen what he will do regarding the clay, in that he has chosen to respond to the clay according to its repentance or lack of repentance. By quoting the potter/clay metaphor in Romans 9:20, Paul essentially tells the Jews that God will deal with them based on their repentance—as he has always said he would deal with them. The “clay” in this quotation is not the non-elect; it is Israel, which does not feel it needs to come to Christ. The questioner who believes that Israel should be saved because of its ethnic descent is reminded that repentance has always been required for God’s salvation—even of the Jew. The image is that of the clay blaming its position on the potter, rather than humbly asking to be made anew.
                        "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                        "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Clay left out on its own will harden. The potter placing the clay in a kiln to harden it.
                          . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                          . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                          Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                            16 You turn things upside down!
                            Shall the potter be regarded as the clay,
                            that the thing made should say of its maker,
                            “He did not make me”;
                            or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
                            “He has no understanding”?


                            This clearly refers to people whose worship of God is mere pretense, and who think that they can plan and do evil without the Lord’s knowledge or interference.
                            Note the statement "he who formed it", though. Apparently in back of all our planning, and doing, and choosing is God the potter, forming us. Did Pharaoh's choices have a cause? Apparently they did, see my opening post.

                            Not only this passage, but in fact the other OT passages in which this type of potter-clay illustration is used (Isa. 45:1-13; 64:4-8; Jer. 18:1-10) all refer to people who are under judgment for their own false worship and disregard of God and His Law, and either imply or specifically offer restoration to those who repent (e.g., Isa. 29:17-19; 45:14, 22; 64:9-12).
                            But does repentance have a cause in God? Apparently so:

                            "Why, Lord, do you make us wander from your ways
                            and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?" (Is 63:17)

                            God has sovereignly chosen what he will do regarding the clay, in that he has chosen to respond to the clay according to its repentance or lack of repentance.
                            But repentance has a cause!

                            "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." (2 Ti 2:25–26)

                            So God is at work, forming hearts to be repentant, or hardening them.


                            "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

                            One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? (Ro 9:18–21)

                            Blessings,
                            Lee
                            Last edited by lee_merrill; 01-27-2018, 04:02 PM.
                            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
                              Though that would not fit the potter and clay analogy, above.

                              Blessings,
                              Lee
                              Maybe that's the problem with being to wedded to an analogy to the exclusion of all else..

                              Comment

                              widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                              Working...
                              X