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Thread: God hardened Pharaoh's heart

  1. #11
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teallaura View Post
    Reread it. Pharaoh makes the decision multiple times before God hardens his heart.
    Yes, but that's what I tried to address in my opening post, Pharaoh's decision was because of God's decision.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    Professor and Chaplain Littlejoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post

    This would again not fit the model of the potter and clay (Isa. 29:16, Jer. 18:5, Rom. 9:21).

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Honestly Lee, I don't know how you can say that. The passages themselves deny what you're implying. If you look up just a few verses there in Isaiah 29, you can see that it fits perfectly with the biblical potter/clay model. The problem seems to me to be that you think the clay is passive...I think careful reading of the Isaiah 29 and Jeremiah 18 passages show that to be a wrong assumption. Look at Is. 29:13-16


    13And the Lord said:
    “Because this people draw near with their mouth
    and honor me with their lips,
    while their hearts are far from me,
    and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men,

    14 therefore, behold, I will again
    do wonderful things with this people,
    with wonder upon wonder;
    and the wisdom of their wise men shall perish,
    and the discernment of their discerning men shall be hidden.”



    15 Ah, you who hide deep from the Lord your counsel,
    whose deeds are in the dark,
    and who say, “Who sees us? Who knows us?”


    16 You turn things upside down!
    Shall the potter be regarded as the clay,
    that the thing made should say of its maker,
    “He did not make me”;
    or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
    “He has no understanding”?


    This clearly refers to people whose worship of God is mere pretense, and who think that they can plan and do evil without the Lord’s knowledge or interference. Not only this passage, but in fact the other OT passages in which this type of potter-clay illustration is used (Isa. 45:1-13; 64:4-8; Jer. 18:1-10) all refer to people who are under judgment for their own false worship and disregard of God and His Law, and either imply or specifically offer restoration to those who repent (e.g., Isa. 29:17-19; 45:14, 22; 64:9-12). Jeremiah 18:6-10 clearly indicates that the “clay” is not merely passive. Look at the Jeremiah passage a little closer:


    “O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter does?” declares the Lord. “Like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, O house of Israel. If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.”

    God has sovereignly chosen what he will do regarding the clay, in that he has chosen to respond to the clay according to its repentance or lack of repentance. By quoting the potter/clay metaphor in Romans 9:20, Paul essentially tells the Jews that God will deal with them based on their repentance—as he has always said he would deal with them. The “clay” in this quotation is not the non-elect; it is Israel, which does not feel it needs to come to Christ. The questioner who believes that Israel should be saved because of its ethnic descent is reminded that repentance has always been required for God’s salvation—even of the Jew. The image is that of the clay blaming its position on the potter, rather than humbly asking to be made anew.
    "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

    "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

  3. Amen Teallaura, OU812 amen'd this post.
  4. #13
    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Clay left out on its own will harden. The potter placing the clay in a kiln to harden it.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Littlejoe View Post
    16 You turn things upside down!
    Shall the potter be regarded as the clay,
    that the thing made should say of its maker,
    “He did not make me”;
    or the thing formed say of him who formed it,
    “He has no understanding”?


    This clearly refers to people whose worship of God is mere pretense, and who think that they can plan and do evil without the Lord’s knowledge or interference.
    Note the statement "he who formed it", though. Apparently in back of all our planning, and doing, and choosing is God the potter, forming us. Did Pharaoh's choices have a cause? Apparently they did, see my opening post.

    Not only this passage, but in fact the other OT passages in which this type of potter-clay illustration is used (Isa. 45:1-13; 64:4-8; Jer. 18:1-10) all refer to people who are under judgment for their own false worship and disregard of God and His Law, and either imply or specifically offer restoration to those who repent (e.g., Isa. 29:17-19; 45:14, 22; 64:9-12).
    But does repentance have a cause in God? Apparently so:

    "Why, Lord, do you make us wander from your ways
    and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?" (Is 63:17)

    God has sovereignly chosen what he will do regarding the clay, in that he has chosen to respond to the clay according to its repentance or lack of repentance.
    But repentance has a cause!

    "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." (2 Ti 2:25–26)

    So God is at work, forming hearts to be repentant, or hardening them.


    "Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

    One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use? (Ro 9:18–21)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Last edited by lee_merrill; 01-27-2018 at 09:02 PM.
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Though that would not fit the potter and clay analogy, above.

    Blessings,
    Lee
    Maybe that's the problem with being to wedded to an analogy to the exclusion of all else..

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    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OU812 View Post
    Maybe that's the problem with being to wedded to an analogy to the exclusion of all else..
    Well, I assume here that God picks his analogies carefully! A potter and clay does not speak of conscious decisions by the clay, though people do make conscious decisions. We may then inquire if God is behind various conscious decisions such as repentance, and it turns out he is:

    "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." (2 Ti 2:25–26, emphasis added)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

  8. #17
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Well, I assume here that God picks his analogies carefully! A potter and clay does not speak of conscious decisions by the clay, though people do make conscious decisions. We may then inquire if God is behind various conscious decisions such as repentance, and it turns out he is:
    I think it instructive how that analogy assumes greater emphasis in the Protestant world than say in the EO/EC/RC churches. Ditto for quoting Paul to the exclusion of much else in the Bible/Canon. And, just as the "Jacob vs. Esau" analogy from Malachi by way of Romans is misconstrued as teaching about the salvation of individuals - when in actuality the context has to do with "corporate" salvation - these verses (also from Romans) are misconstrued as teaching something approaching the philosophical error of "occationalism" - where cause-and-effect, and creaturely participation are denigrated as "slights" to God's glory.

  9. Amen Littlejoe, alaskazimm amen'd this post.
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    tWebber Darth Executor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lee_merrill View Post
    Though that would not fit the potter and clay analogy, above.
    Why not? The clay reacts to the potter's touch. Like pharaoh.
    "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

    There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Trying to look for hints of synergistic thinking simply doesn't fit the context of Romans 9, whether or not one interprets it to refer to individual election (as opposed to corporate election).
    Do not say, “Why were the old days better than these?”
    For it is not wise to ask such questions. - Ecclesiastes 7:10

  12. Amen lee_merrill amen'd this post.
  13. #20
    tWebber lee_merrill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Executor View Post
    Why not? The clay reacts to the potter's touch. Like pharaoh.
    Yes, but is God behind Pharaoh hardening his heart? See my opening post...

    Quote Originally Posted by OU812
    And, just as the "Jacob vs. Esau" analogy from Malachi by way of Romans is misconstrued as teaching about the salvation of individuals - when in actuality the context has to do with "corporate" salvation - these verses (also from Romans) are misconstrued as teaching something approaching the philosophical error of "occationalism" - where cause-and-effect, and creaturely participation are denigrated as "slights" to God's glory.
    I see in Scripture though where God is the cause of repentance, and hardening of hearts:

    "Why, Lord, do you make us wander from your ways
    and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?
    Return for the sake of your servants,
    the tribes that are your inheritance." (Isa 63:17)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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