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God hardened Pharaoh's heart

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  • #16
    Originally posted by OU812 View Post
    Maybe that's the problem with being to wedded to an analogy to the exclusion of all else..
    Well, I assume here that God picks his analogies carefully! A potter and clay does not speak of conscious decisions by the clay, though people do make conscious decisions. We may then inquire if God is behind various conscious decisions such as repentance, and it turns out he is:

    "Opponents must be gently instructed, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will." (2 Ti 2:25–26, emphasis added)

    Blessings,
    Lee
    "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

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    • #17
      Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
      Well, I assume here that God picks his analogies carefully! A potter and clay does not speak of conscious decisions by the clay, though people do make conscious decisions. We may then inquire if God is behind various conscious decisions such as repentance, and it turns out he is:
      I think it instructive how that analogy assumes greater emphasis in the Protestant world than say in the EO/EC/RC churches. Ditto for quoting Paul to the exclusion of much else in the Bible/Canon. And, just as the "Jacob vs. Esau" analogy from Malachi by way of Romans is misconstrued as teaching about the salvation of individuals - when in actuality the context has to do with "corporate" salvation - these verses (also from Romans) are misconstrued as teaching something approaching the philosophical error of "occationalism" - where cause-and-effect, and creaturely participation are denigrated as "slights" to God's glory.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
        Though that would not fit the potter and clay analogy, above.
        Why not? The clay reacts to the potter's touch. Like pharaoh.
        "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

        There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

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        • #19
          Trying to look for hints of synergistic thinking simply doesn't fit the context of Romans 9, whether or not one interprets it to refer to individual election (as opposed to corporate election).
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
            Why not? The clay reacts to the potter's touch. Like pharaoh.
            Yes, but is God behind Pharaoh hardening his heart? See my opening post...

            Originally posted by OU812
            And, just as the "Jacob vs. Esau" analogy from Malachi by way of Romans is misconstrued as teaching about the salvation of individuals - when in actuality the context has to do with "corporate" salvation - these verses (also from Romans) are misconstrued as teaching something approaching the philosophical error of "occationalism" - where cause-and-effect, and creaturely participation are denigrated as "slights" to God's glory.
            I see in Scripture though where God is the cause of repentance, and hardening of hearts:

            "Why, Lord, do you make us wander from your ways
            and harden our hearts so we do not revere you?
            Return for the sake of your servants,
            the tribes that are your inheritance." (Isa 63:17)

            Blessings,
            Lee
            "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by lee_merrill View Post
              Yes, but is God behind Pharaoh hardening his heart? See my opening post...
              Yes, just not in the sense that He magically (for lack of a better word) induced Pharaoh's heart to harden.
              "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

              There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                Yes, just not in the sense that He magically (for lack of a better word) induced Pharaoh's heart to harden.
                Indeed, God may have very well used means to bring about this result...

                Blessings,
                Lee
                "What I pray of you is, to keep your eye upon Him, for that is everything. Do you say, 'How am I to keep my eye on Him?' I reply, keep your eye off everything else, and you will soon see Him. All depends on the eye of faith being kept on Him. How simple it is!" (J.B. Stoney)

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                  Trying to look for hints of synergistic thinking simply doesn't fit the context of Romans 9, whether or not one interprets it to refer to individual election (as opposed to corporate election).
                  After looking at it further...I disagree with you. The whole context is dealing exactly with that issue. The question Paul is asking and answering is found in verse 6...has the Word of God failed? Answer is:
                  God's salvation is for all those that respond in faith. Reread Rom. 9:30 - 32. The gentiles obtain righteousness by faith. Jews miss it by trying to obtain it by the Law. If the way you respond to God is not synergistic then, I'm not sure what is.
                  "What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer

                  "... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Littlejoe View Post
                    After looking at it further...I disagree with you. The whole context is dealing exactly with that issue. The question Paul is asking and answering is found in verse 6...has the Word of God failed? Answer is:
                    God's salvation is for all those that respond in faith. Reread Rom. 9:30 - 32. The gentiles obtain righteousness by faith. Jews miss it by trying to obtain it by the Law. If the way you respond to God is not synergistic then, I'm not sure what is.
                    Yep, exactly. Reading monergism into Romans 9 not only divorces it of its immediate context - it also divorces it from the complete textual context of Romans as a whole (as well as Paul's other writings).

                    I believe the problem comes with what I call the 'Law of First Mention'. The problem is that when most people hear the idea of the 'potter and the clay' or 'predestination', etc. they hear it interpreted through the lens of a particular theology (Calvinism), as opposed to the council of scripture as a whole and the understanding at the time of the writings. The Law of First Mention means that the first time you encounter something (or are taught something) - it will shape the way you see things from now on.

                    When you dig down beyond the textual context into the cultural context and understanding, you will see that the only thing resembling that sort of theology was embedded in gnostic teaching regarding fate. Not surprisingly, the early church vehemently opposed anything even remotely resembling this sort of teaching.

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