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The Concept of Privilege

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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Um... I'm not talking about people who disagree. I'm talking about people who tell me I mean X when I have repeatedly said "I don't mean X, you're adding meaning to what I've said that I did not put there."

    And if someone believes that the studies I've provided are not accurate, then tell me how they are not accurate. If you believe the conclusions they draw do not mean what they are claimed to mean, then let's discuss that.

    But to simply wave them away and ignore them? I would suggest it is not I being dismissive.
    When I mentioned the statistics about being male involving more risk at the job etc., your response was:

    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    No one said that there are no disadvantages to being white/male. Overall, however, there is a tendency to more privilege than disadvantage for most of us.
    So yeah...I think you're being more dismissive than you realize.
    I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
      And this is why I mentioned not being "allowed" to question it. If you're going to be this dismissive, I don't see the point in going further either.

      Edit: e.g., "you disagree? Obviously you just don't care about facts."

      ^that sort of talk is why I'm virtually incapable of taking politics seriously. It happens everywhere.
      Yup. Facts are only facts, but there can be more than one interpretation of these facts.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
        When I mentioned the statistics about being male involving more risk at the job etc., your response was:

        So yeah...I think you're being more dismissive than you realize.
        I am dismissive of you because I disagree with you? Look, you made a statement. Fine. Now provide the data that supports your statement and I will happily look at it. I've provided two examples to support what I was saying, and I could provide more for other aspects of our society. But I am not sure why I would spend the time. So far, what I have put forward for supporting data is simply dismissed, and then counter assertions are made that are either a) not related to what I actually said, or b) are offered without a shred of supporting evidence.

        Zymo - I'm not a close-minded person. I will look at anything anyone brings to bear in a discussion. I have erred several time here and acknowledged it. I have changed my position here on the strength of an offered argument. I truly do not think it is I who is being dismissive here. I will willing look at anything offered to the discussion. That was my entire purpose for starting it.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          I am dismissive of you because I disagree with you? Look, you made a statement. Fine. Now provide the data that supports your statement and I will happily look at it. I've provided two examples to support what I was saying, and I could provide more for other aspects of our society. But I am not sure why I would spend the time. So far, what I have put forward for supporting data is simply dismissed, and then counter assertions are made that are either a) not related to what I actually said, or b) are offered without a shred of supporting evidence.

          Zymo - I'm not a close-minded person. I will look at anything anyone brings to bear in a discussion. I have erred several time here and acknowledged it. I have changed my position here on the strength of an offered argument. I truly do not think it is I who is being dismissive here. I will willing look at anything offered to the discussion. That was my entire purpose for starting it.
          Men are more likely to commit suicide than women.

          Men are more likely to die in war than women. (this one seems obvious)

          Men die younger.

          Men are more likely to die on the job.

          None of that is to say that we have a systemic problem with "female privilege" or something, but rather to say that if we're going to talk about what are ostensibly widespread, systemic problems like this it seems to be a lot more complicated than it's made out to be (i.e., male & white privilege outweigh most everything else).
          I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
            I think this is what people take objection to; I'm not sure that I've really seen this demonstrated. It's one of those topics that, if you'll allow me to say so, people aren't really "allowed" to question nowadays.
            There's something to that. I know of one liberal Christian blogger who has a stated policy of deleting any comments on his Facebook page claiming white privilege does not exist because it is too dangerous of a statement to allow.
            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
              Men are more likely to commit suicide than women.

              Men are more likely to die in war than women. (this one seems obvious)

              Men die younger.

              Men are more likely to die on the job.

              None of that is to say that we have a systemic problem with "female privilege" or something, but rather to say that if we're going to talk about what are ostensibly widespread, systemic problems like this it seems to be a lot more complicated than it's made out to be (i.e., male & white privilege outweigh most everything else).
              All of these things are true, and there ARE places where there is female privilege. One of them, for example, is the likelihood that, in a divorce action, I will gain custody of children. Here, there is a systemic bias to women that is well documented and worthy of being addressed. It is an example of "female privilege."

              For the rest, let's look at them one at a time:

              Suicide: It is hard to talk about "privilege" or the absence thereof for a self-selected act. I'm not sure how that translates to "privilege" or the lack thereof. Perhaps you can explain?

              War: So women, until recently, have been prohibited from front line roles and are usually a minority voice in declaring or calling for war, so how do we then turn around and complain that this represents a privilege (or lack thereof)? If a gender creates a privilege for the other gender, can they then complain that they have it? There is also an association between this and "dying on the job" (see below).

              Die Younger: This tends to be true, but the question that comes to mind is "why?" If the answer to that question is, because they are more likely to work their entire lives (a large percentage of women are still "at home moms" and the workplace is still dominated by men. There are 74.6 million women in the civilian labor force. Almost 47 percent of U.S. workers are women. More than 39 percent of women work in occupations where women make up at least three-quarters of the workforce.) So if these realities are impacting the death rate, then (again), have men not created their own problem? I think there is also a part of this that is associated with "die on the job" (see below).

              Die on the job: This one DOES seem to me to be an implicit privilege of being female, but I am not sure it is one that is unjust, or can be changed. The fact is, on average, men are larger and stronger than women. That means they are better suited for work that requires brawn, which tends to include the more dangerous jobs. The privilege devolves to women, but it is not clear to me it is an injustice. It is a natural consequence of nature.

              Those are my thoughts. Comments?


              BTW - I find your way of engaging in this discussion refreshing, Zymo. I'm not being told what I am saying. Instead I am being presented with some concepts to consider. It is appreciated.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                There's something to that. I know of one liberal Christian blogger who has a stated policy of deleting any comments on his Facebook page claiming white privilege does not exist because it is too dangerous of a statement to allow.
                I find such an approach reprehensible. I also disagree with the tendency of young people to want to shutdown speakers they do not agree with or find offensive.

                I disagree with someone who says "white privilege does not exist." But I recognize their right to say it. My problem with a great deal of this discussion is that I am repeatedly being told I am saying "X" when "X" has nothing to do with what I am saying. It is, I acknowledge, a bit frustrating to find myself continually having to say "I didn't say that, I don't think that, I didn't imply that."
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  It is, I acknowledge, a bit frustrating to find myself continually having to say "I didn't say that, I don't think that, I didn't imply that."
                  Like I said, it would behoove you, then, to say what you mean instead of using terms that have well-established and widely understood meanings and then insisting that you really mean something else entirely. It would be like speaking approvingly of white supremacy and saying, "Oh, but I never meant to imply that non-whites are inherently inferior. That's not what I mean by white supremacy."
                  Last edited by Mountain Man; 01-30-2018, 07:14 PM.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Like I said, it would behoove you, then, to say what you mean instead of using terms that have well-established and widely understood meanings and then insisting that you really mean something else entirely. It would be like speaking approvingly of white supremacy and saying, "Oh, but I never meant to imply that non-whites are inherently inferior. That's not what I mean by white supremacy."
                    MM, I really have lost patience for discussion with you. My impression is it doesn't matter what I say or what language I use; you've deciced what I mean and that is that. Most of the time, when you are shown to be off, you either dig in and double down, or simply ignore and don't respond. Case in point, I showed how your assumptions about what I said about "white privilege" were wrong, and it was just ignored. At this point, I have to admit I've come to the conclusion that your posts are disengenuous and you are more interested in trolling than discussing/debating. I think I will leave you to it.

                    If you have something rational/reasonable to offer, I will respond. If all I see if more trolling, I'll leave you to it.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      Wrong.

                      The symbol of justice has scales and a blindfold to imply that the law can be fairly enforced without prejudice. It has nothing to do with "[balancing] our concept of privilege". On the contrary, "privilege", or lack of it, should never be a consideration when enforcing the law.
                      It is good (philosophically) to analyze and deconstruct a single concept---but since our lived experiences are complex and diverse---it is equally helpful to look at concepts wholistically...and I find that seeing intersections of concepts is helpful. That is why I used the symbol of the scales to clarify the idea of how various concepts interact and balance each other.

                      If the blindfold on lady Justice symbolizes (inherent) equality (equivalent worth) of those who stand before the law as well as the principle of innocence until proven guilty (impartiality) then it is appropriate....but if justice (as law) is not balanced by compassion and mercy---then it will become harsh and this will create injustice which means it will cease to be just.

                      Some concepts such as color blind, gender blind, class/status blind...etc are not helpful. The reason for this is that we live in a world that is UNEQUAL. Circumstances (God) has created the reality this way....(and sometimes we humans have made things worse instead of better). Diversity is essential for our reality to work---just look at how nature functions--the diversity in nature builds a functioning ecosystem.....Therefore it is incorrect to understand "equality" as "sameness". Male and female are not the "same" no matter how much feminists insist otherwise. But---they are inherently equal (of equivalent worth) even if they are biologically different. Likewise, those with mental deficiency or with mental efficiency are not the same---they will have different needs, but they are inherently of equivalent worth.

                      What makes a society unequal is the distribution of "assets" (or in theological terms---"blessings") So some have better health than others or more wealth, or other privileges/blessings. This apparent inequality does not effect the inherent equality/worth of human beings therefore "rights" of each human being are equal. A rich man and a poor man have equal rights to security, wealth, family, conscience...etc.

                      Justice requires that when an injustice (by humans) has occurred, that this be acknowledged and corrected (in theological language this would mean = remorse and reconciliation) One way to correct an injustice is compensation---this can be monetary or it can be entitlements/privileges. When it is circumstances that have created unfairness, then justice requires compassion and mercy to correct it and this can be in the form of charity or it can be in the form of giving extra consideration/privileges (for example, handicapped parking...etc). To be blind to such nuance and complexity will simply multiply injustice.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Read the study, Pixie. Or don't. The choice is yours. But until you do, I'm not going to pay a lot of attention to your critiques.
                        Sorry, but I’m not reading through dozens of pages of a study and a chart when I have more important things to do. You brought the study, you can answer basic questions about their controls and methods. Unless your goal is simply to use it as a club to beat people who disagree with you, than carry on.

                        That was never proposed by me, so I don't know why you feel a need to respond to it.
                        And yet you continue to argue that people that succeed were given a leg up and really don’t deserve any of it. What’s the problem, don’t like it when that logic is taken to its conclusion?

                        So because some people won't listen, we don't do it? Again, no one has suggested we can create a perfect system. You do as much as you can and hope to begin the process of reversing the cultural trend.
                        No your approach is wrong. Do you know how most workers approach those training classes? As a chore that they would rather do almost anything else. Sometimes there is necessity behind it, but the ones that generally most need training are those least likely to care what you have to say anyway. Telling white people they are closest racist and don’t deserve what they got and got where they are because of white privilege isn’t the best method to get their attention, but if you want to keep going down that guilt and jealousy road, more power to you, but I think I’ll try another road.

                        Except I said nothing about trying to have "everyone raised in the same circumstance." I merely pointed out multiple, fairly simple, activities that can be engaged in to begin the process of shift, specifically targetted to systemic implicit bias, not to circumstantial differences in privilege.
                        You still don’t get it yet, do you? Telling a father that he doesn’t deserve what he got and his ‘white privilege’ is how he got where he got is going to fall on death ears while his family lives pay check to paycheck, just squeaking by. If you think that works, go for it, but don’t be surprised when your employees think you’re out of touch and clueless about their lives.

                        Who on earth said anything about inciting jealousy? And why do you folks feel a need to continually return to this "guilt" theme. Have anyone noticed that the only people screaming "guilt" and jealousy are those on the right? I can see the condition of people in Haiti and want to help them move to a better place without for one second thinking I am in any way guilty of causing their situation. I can realize that my tendency to get louder when I get angry is because that is what I learned in my home and work to correct it without having one moment of guilt about it. I can also learn that my reaction to people of different races is skewed because of the culture/home I grew up in and want to correct it without feeling one iota of guilt. Our society is as it is for factors that trace back centuries and generations - and they have nothing to do with me. Recognizing cause does not immediately require me to feel guilt. That's ridiculous.
                        Actually, my dad is a democrat and hates the whole white privilege theory because he sure hasn’t felt any living paycheck to paycheck to struggle to take care of his 3 children. My mother and father are decent, working class people that sure haven’t felt much ‘white privilege’ at all. Problem is carp is that you clearly have no idea of the struggles that working class people go through and how they don’t want to hear how privileged a rich white man believes himself to be and assumes other white people should think they are too. Your totally clueless and continue to show it every time you talk about this topic.

                        If you cannot do these things without immediately feeling guilt, then I suggest you look at why that is so - instead of just assuming that anyone who wants to improve themselves and our society as a whole is driven by guilt. I can assure you that guilt has nothing to do with it, no matter how many times you tell me it does.
                        I have nothing to feel guilty about because I have earned what I have. Tell me carp, did your parents struggle paycheck to paycheck at all in your childhood? Have you in your adulthood? Yes or no?
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          I gave two examples, both of which were backed by studies. There are others. At this point, however, there seems little point in going further. Most of the denizens of this particular forum (at least those responding) appear to be dedicated to the proposition that none of this exists, and no amount of data seems likely to change that perspective.

                          This is what is meant when folks talk about the fact that we are in a new age where facts just don't matter. If the facts don't fit the opinion, they are simply discarded or ignored. IMO, that's a pretty dangerous way to function. It's a threat to democracy, and it's a threat to civil society, IMO.
                          I sure don’t remember all my white privilege when my dad got hurt on the job and was out of work for over a year. I sure don’t remember it when I was taking care of my brothers while my mother worked and my father was in consistent pain from his major surgeries. I didn’t get pretty and new prom dresses, didn’t get to go out with my friends, didn’t get a car or license at 16, and never had a college fund. Gosh, why ever would I enjoy getting lectured at by a rich white guy that thinks being white makes you so privileged?
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            Sorry, but I’m not reading through dozens of pages of a study and a chart when I have more important things to do. You brought the study, you can answer basic questions about their controls and methods. Unless your goal is simply to use it as a club to beat people who disagree with you, than carry on.
                            I believe I have answered the questions. You apparently did not believe me, ergo my suggestion that you read the study. If you have further questions about it, I'm happy to answer. It doesn't help if you don't believe my answers.

                            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            And yet you continue to argue that people that succeed were given a leg up and really don’t deserve any of it. What’s the problem, don’t like it when that logic is taken to its conclusion?
                            Since I have never said this, I feel no need to respond.

                            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            No your approach is wrong. Do you know how most workers approach those training classes? As a chore that they would rather do almost anything else. Sometimes there is necessity behind it, but the ones that generally most need training are those least likely to care what you have to say anyway. Telling white people they are closest racist and don’t deserve what they got and got where they are because of white privilege isn’t the best method to get their attention, but if you want to keep going down that guilt and jealousy road, more power to you, but I think I’ll try another road.
                            Since I have never said this, I feel no need to respond.

                            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            You still don’t get it yet, do you? Telling a father that he doesn’t deserve what he got and his ‘white privilege’ is how he got where he got is going to fall on death ears while his family lives pay check to paycheck, just squeaking by. If you think that works, go for it, but don’t be surprised when your employees think you’re out of touch and clueless about their lives.
                            Since I have never said this, I feel no need to respond.

                            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            Actually, my dad is a democrat and hates the whole white privilege theory because he sure hasn’t felt any living paycheck to paycheck to struggle to take care of his 3 children. My mother and father are decent, working class people that sure haven’t felt much ‘white privilege’ at all. Problem is carp is that you clearly have no idea of the struggles that working class people go through and how they don’t want to hear how privileged a rich white man believes himself to be and assumes other white people should think they are too. Your totally clueless and continue to show it every time you talk about this topic.
                            My father was truck driver, then unemployed, and then became a machinist. I grew up in a home with five children, shared bedrooms, basic needs met (usually), but no luxuries. I put myself through college, and a master's degree with a couple small grants, money I earned, and a LOT of student loans (that included 4.5 years in formation to be a Catholic priest). I started work as a dishwasher and worked my way up to restaurant manager before shifting to engineering and robotics, and then telecommunications. I started the latter as a graphics designer, became one of the teachers, worked my way into management and became part of the executive board. I took a position with a second company at the executive level, and then broke off to start my own company. When I was first married, and we bought our first small house, our debt was so deep that 95% of every penny we made (and my wife and I both worked two jobs) went to pay off loans and pay basic bills (utilities, insurances, etc.). We lived off the other 5% (groceries, gas, etc.). We initially didn't have enough money in the bank to survive a single catastrophe. My father was probably near the 50 percentile, and I now am in the 1 percentile (depending on whose numbers you believe). I owe my success to a combination of agressive ambition, talent, willingness to work, AND a set of societal advantages I did nothing to earn. No one of those things made me successful - it took all of them.

                            Your obervation that I am clueless is false.

                            Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                            I have nothing to feel guilty about because I have earned what I have. Tell me carp, did your parents struggle paycheck to paycheck at all in your childhood? Have you in your adulthood? Yes or no?
                            I have not suggested that anyone needs to feel guilty. Yes, and yes.
                            Last edited by carpedm9587; 01-31-2018, 07:05 AM.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              I sure don’t remember all my white privilege when my dad got hurt on the job and was out of work for over a year. I sure don’t remember it when I was taking care of my brothers while my mother worked and my father was in consistent pain from his major surgeries. I didn’t get pretty and new prom dresses, didn’t get to go out with my friends, didn’t get a car or license at 16, and never had a college fund. Gosh, why ever would I enjoy getting lectured at by a rich white guy that thinks being white makes you so privileged?
                              The privileges anyone experiences in our society are baked into the society. They are largely invisible until someone uncovers them. No one, screening resumes, was aware of the pre-screening bias until it was studied and discovered. A white person does not notice the "privilege" of being able to walk down the street without people looking at you with a degree of fright and crossing to the other side of the street instead of passing you. You have to be black, and experience that over and over again to recognize the privilege. Most of the privileges we enjoy due to race (black or white), gender (male or female), ethnicity (mexican, spanish, french), or sexual orientation (gay, straight, etc.) are baked into our culture. They are "accepted norms" that are simply seldom challenged. A study, similar to the orchestra study, showed that scouts have a strong bias towards black athletes when scoping out basketball players. Implicit bias statistically, measurably, presents itself in over 95% of the population. Apparently, with respect to race (which is the test you took, I am assuming), you are part of the 5%. That does not mean implicit bias and the associated privileges it creates are not present in our society.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                ...you've decided what I mean...
                                No, I'm simply telling you the meaning of the terms you've chosen to use, and all the ugly, divisive, racist baggage that goes along with them.
                                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                                Comment

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