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Secret Giving as Opposed to Public Giving

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    But this thing is multi-faceted. There's the individual (or entity) who/that needs help, and the "heart" of the giver doesn't matter to them, they get helped regardless. For the "giver", though, there can be the 'earthly' satisfaction of knowing they did a good thing. In your 'proof text' (which is exactly what I suspected), I don't think it's so much a warning to not give publicly, but to understand it's all about motives. The "sounding the trumpet", I think, is the key --- if you're ONLY doing it for earthly recognition, that's all you'll get.

    If you go really literally on this, KG, what do you do about the early Church selling things and giving the money to the apostles for distribution? It's kinda hard to do that secretly, but, at the same time, it wasn't a "hey everybody, look what I'm doing" thing.

    I appreciate you taking the time to engage in this, because I think sometimes we really oversimplify this whole thing.
    The example of the early church seems like a good example of some people doing it for the wrong reasons. We know what Ananias and Sapphira did, and why they did it (for show).

    I agree in many cases it's going to be impossible to do it totally anonymously. I still think we can apply what Jesus said though, by not going out of our way to publicize what we do - by not telling people who aren't directly involved, for instance, and not waiting until other people are around to do it.

    I was guilty of something like this the other day at work. There was a high school kid in the town where I work last weekwho was suicidal, and the cops got called, and he tried to kill an officer when they responded. He ended up being fatally shot, and the family predictably got an outpouring of letters and cards. Somebody forgot to put enough postage, so the family got a postage due notice on one of the cards. The family lived on the route I did that day. I decided to pay for it myself (only 42 cents) so the family didn't have to bother with it. Stupidly, I told several of my co-workers what I had done, and I still feel sick and selfish about it. I had the wrong motives. So it's something that's been on my own mind.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

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    • #17
      Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
      The example of the early church seems like a good example of some people doing it for the wrong reasons. We know what Ananias and Sapphira did, and why they did it (for show).

      I agree in many cases it's going to be impossible to do it totally anonymously. I still think we can apply what Jesus said though, by not going out of our way to publicize what we do - by not telling people who aren't directly involved, for instance, and not waiting until other people are around to do it.

      I was guilty of something like this the other day at work. There was a high school kid in the town where I work last weekwho was suicidal, and the cops got called, and he tried to kill an officer when they responded. He ended up being fatally shot, and the family predictably got an outpouring of letters and cards. Somebody forgot to put enough postage, so the family got a postage due notice on one of the cards. The family lived on the route I did that day. I decided to pay for it myself (only 42 cents) so the family didn't have to bother with it. Stupidly, I told several of my co-workers what I had done, and I still feel sick and selfish about it. I had the wrong motives. So it's something that's been on my own mind.

      For the sarcastically impaired the following is said in jest


      Well there goes YOUR crown.


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      • #18
        Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
        The example of the early church seems like a good example of some people doing it for the wrong reasons. We know what Ananias and Sapphira did, and why they did it (for show).
        EGGzackly - like so many things in the spiritual world, it's as much (if not more) about the motive than the act.

        I agree in many cases it's going to be impossible to do it totally anonymously. I still think we can apply what Jesus said though, by not going out of our way to publicize what we do - by not telling people who aren't directly involved, for instance, and not waiting until other people are around to do it.
        Yeah, by "not going out of our way" to publicize. But I don't think we have to "go out of our way" to make it secret, either.

        I was guilty of something like this the other day at work. There was a high school kid in the town where I work last weekwho was suicidal, and the cops got called, and he tried to kill an officer when they responded. He ended up being fatally shot, and the family predictably got an outpouring of letters and cards. Somebody forgot to put enough postage, so the family got a postage due notice on one of the cards. The family lived on the route I did that day. I decided to pay for it myself (only 42 cents) so the family didn't have to bother with it. Stupidly, I told several of my co-workers what I had done, and I still feel sick and selfish about it. I had the wrong motives. So it's something that's been on my own mind.
        Sure, there are a lot of things like that that we can simply do, and nobody knows.

        In fact, the best definition of "character" I ever heard is "who you are in the dark". Or, when nobody's watching.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          But I don't think we have to "go out of our way" to make it secret, either.
          On this minor point I'll have to disagree. I think when Jesus says "let not your left hand know what you're right is doing", he is talking about making an active effort to conceal. I agree with everything else you said though.
          "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
            On this minor point I'll have to disagree. I think when Jesus says "let not your left hand know what you're right is doing", he is talking about making an active effort to conceal. I agree with everything else you said though.
            But that was because --- "If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."

            If it's the right thing to do, am I really worried whether I get my reward 'here' or 'yonder'? I think it's more important to help where needed than to worry about how I'll be rewarded for it. Again, I think you really need to look at the context - to whom Jesus was speaking, and why he was saying what He did.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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            • #21
              OK, part of my interest in this comes from years ago....

              A church where I was youth pastor had an annual "awards banquet", in which they gave awards to people who did notable things.

              That always felt wrong to me, because, as KG is positing, we're supposed to do these things in secret. Yet, I "got it" that this encouraged people to help out - like, they honored the bus drivers who brought the little kids to church, and stuff like that.

              And I realized at that time I was a bit legalistic, and have been contemplating this whole thing ever since.
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                But that was because --- "If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven."

                If it's the right thing to do, am I really worried whether I get my reward 'here' or 'yonder'? I think it's more important to help where needed than to worry about how I'll be rewarded for it. Again, I think you really need to look at the context - to whom Jesus was speaking, and why he was saying what He did.
                That's actually a good point. If you are doing it just to get a reward in heaven, isn't that just as selfish a motivation as doing it for the praise of men? You are only doing it to get something for yourself instead of doing it because it is the right thing to do for the other person.

                Dang it. Now I can't even do things in secret any more! I will always wonder if I am doing to just to impress God. Thanks Cow Poke

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                • #23
                  The problem is that the not letting your left hand know what the right is doing part of the verse is often used as a cudgel to bludgeon people with. This past Christmas in Yreka, California an elderly gentleman handed out over 600.00 in 20 dollar bills to children at his local Wal-Mart. He posted about it on his Facebook and made it public to reassure parents of the recipients that it was a harmless gesture to bring Christmas cheer to the children. His local news picked it up and a bunch of posters just slaughtered him accusing him of "tooting" his own horn and some of the posters brought up that very passage.

                  http://kval.com/news/local/man-hands...sh-on-facebook

                  On a personal note, having been on the receiving end of CP's generosity, I've never felt like he's done it for public acclaim. After my brother ripped apart the Bible I was using for college, he purchased me a new Bible. I won't say how much it cost but I will say that it was a very expensive Bible used primarily by pastors or clergy members. It wasn't done in secret and I publically thanked him for it. I don't think he was being a Pharisee and I'm pretty sure Jesus smiled when he helped me like that. We need to be careful to not use scripture as an excuse to pummel people.

                  Still use that Bible every day, Creacher.
                  I am Punkinhead.

                  "I have missed you, Oh Grand High Priestess of the Order of the Stirring Pot"

                  ~ Cow Poke aka CP aka Creacher aka ke7ejx's apprentice....

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                    The obvious passage that comes to mind here is Matthew 6:1-4:

                    Be careful not to perform your righteous acts before men to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
                    So when you give to the needy, do not sound a trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be praised by men. Truly I tell you, they already have their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

                    However, I just thought of another passage that might suggest a less strict interpretation: 2 Corinthians 9:5. Paul talks about a gift that was "promised" by the Corinthian church to the poor believers in Macedonia. Clearly there had to be some discussion/coordination of how that gift was put together, especially since Paul knew it was coming ahead of time. In a church context that sort of makes sense. A church needs pledges from people so they know how much to budget for. The heart reason for why people pledge/give is still important there. So I don't know how that all is going to fit in with what Jesus said about charitable giving.

                    Maybe a good question to ask would be "would I still do this if nobody ever found out about it", and if there's any hesitation at all there, there's a heart problem.
                    Sounds about right to me.

                    At this point in my life, I just try to give because its the right thing to do and sweat over appearances, reward or motivation. In me that just produces analysis paralysis.
                    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

                    "Theology can be an intellectual entertainment." Metropolitan Anthony Bloom

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      That's actually a good point. If you are doing it just to get a reward in heaven, isn't that just as selfish a motivation as doing it for the praise of men? You are only doing it to get something for yourself instead of doing it because it is the right thing to do for the other person.

                      Dang it. Now I can't even do things in secret any more! I will always wonder if I am doing to just to impress God. Thanks Cow Poke
                      I was always taught "do the right thing and accept the consequences - good or bad".
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by ke7ejx View Post
                        The problem is that the not letting your left hand know what the right is doing part of the verse is often used as a cudgel to bludgeon people with. This past Christmas in Yreka, California an elderly gentleman handed out over 600.00 in 20 dollar bills to children at his local Wal-Mart. He posted about it on his Facebook and made it public to reassure parents of the recipients that it was a harmless gesture to bring Christmas cheer to the children. His local news picked it up and a bunch of posters just slaughtered him accusing him of "tooting" his own horn and some of the posters brought up that very passage.

                        http://kval.com/news/local/man-hands...sh-on-facebook

                        On a personal note, having been on the receiving end of CP's generosity, I've never felt like he's done it for public acclaim. After my brother ripped apart the Bible I was using for college, he purchased me a new Bible. I won't say how much it cost but I will say that it was a very expensive Bible used primarily by pastors or clergy members. It wasn't done in secret and I publically thanked him for it. I don't think he was being a Pharisee and I'm pretty sure Jesus smiled when he helped me like that. We need to be careful to not use scripture as an excuse to pummel people.

                        Still use that Bible every day, Creacher.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Do good because you want to help others, not because you might get rewarded, right? But it's fun to give in secret! It's like being a superhero. A really lame one, but still!
                          If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                            Do good because you want to help others, not because you might get rewarded, right? But it's fun to give in secret! It's like being a superhero. A really lame one, but still!
                            Years ago, when I was a youth minister, we played a game we called "knock knock zoom zoom". (not the version I played as a rebellious teen, though)

                            When we found out that somebody was in need - like groceries, we would go buy several boxes of groceries, quietly sneak up to the porch at night, place the boxes of groceries on the porch, then ring the doorbell or knock on the door, and run like crazy to hide - never letting the person know where the groceries came from. It was a lot of fun, and the kids used their own money to do this.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Years ago, when I was a youth minister, we played a game we called "knock knock zoom zoom". (not the version I played as a rebellious teen, though)

                              When we found out that somebody was in need - like groceries, we would go buy several boxes of groceries, quietly sneak up to the porch at night, place the boxes of groceries on the porch, then ring the doorbell or knock on the door, and run like crazy to hide - never letting the person know where the groceries came from. It was a lot of fun, and the kids used their own money to do this.
                              Little Old Lady and the Atheist

                              There was a little old lady who would come out every morning on the steps of her front porch, raise her arms to the sky and shout, "Praise the Lord!"

                              Well, one day an atheist moved into the house next door. Over time, he became irritated at the little old lady. So every morning he would step out onto his front porch and yell after her, "There is no God!"

                              Time passes with the two of them carrying on this way every day. Then one morning in the middle of winter, the little old lady stepped onto her front porch and shouted, "Praise the Lord! Lord, I have no food and I am hungry. Please provide for me, oh Lord!"

                              The next morning she stepped onto her porch and there were two huge bags of groceries sitting there. "Praise the Lord!" she cried out. "He has provided groceries for me!" The atheist jumped out of the hedges and shouted, "There is no Lord. I bought those groceries!" The little old lady threw her arms into the air and shouted, "Praise the Lord! He has provided me with groceries and He made the devil pay for them!"

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Little Old Lady and the Atheist

                                There was a little old lady who would come out every morning on the steps of her front porch, raise her arms to the sky and shout, "Praise the Lord!"

                                Well, one day an atheist moved into the house next door. Over time, he became irritated at the little old lady. So every morning he would step out onto his front porch and yell after her, "There is no God!"

                                Time passes with the two of them carrying on this way every day. Then one morning in the middle of winter, the little old lady stepped onto her front porch and shouted, "Praise the Lord! Lord, I have no food and I am hungry. Please provide for me, oh Lord!"

                                The next morning she stepped onto her porch and there were two huge bags of groceries sitting there. "Praise the Lord!" she cried out. "He has provided groceries for me!" The atheist jumped out of the hedges and shouted, "There is no Lord. I bought those groceries!" The little old lady threw her arms into the air and shouted, "Praise the Lord! He has provided me with groceries and He made the devil pay for them!"
                                Yup -- I think that might have been the story that inspired us.
                                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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