Originally posted by Jedidiah
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Carter Page and the fourth amendment
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostThis is clearly a request from lao to cut the name changing in his thread. He is the OP and you are to respect his wishes.
In fairness, I should point out that MM was provoked.
Originally posted by Starlight View PostIf any of that were true, it might bother liberals. As it is, it's just you crazies make up stuff.
While I'll grant that Starlight may have taken MM's broad brush of liberals personally, MM's remarks were not directed at Starlight, himself.
As a general rule, TWeb is lightly moderated, which means there will always be threads where more robust opposition is allowed. Please grant me the opportunity, in these relatively few threads I start, to see disagreements expressed more thoughtfully.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAnd the rabbit hole goes deeper: it seems that not only did Hillary's campaign pay for the dossier, but they were also funneling information to Steele through Obama's State Department:"I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostWith the Dossier getting more and more confirmed over time"As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12
There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.
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Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
HOW TRUE IS THE TRUMP-RUSSIA DOSSIER? ONE YEAR LATER, WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT ITS CLAIMS:
...major parts of the dossier have been verified by subsequent investigations into Russian election meddling, while others still remain a mystery...
Verified: Former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page met with representatives of Russian state-owned oil giant Rosneft.
Verified: The Kremlin targeted educated youth and swing state voters during its cyber attacks in the 2016 campaign.
Verified: Trump maintains ties to rich businessmen from Azerbaijan.
Not proven: Russia had been cultivating Trump for years, or at all.
Not proven: Trump was offered real estate deals in Russia and turned them down.
Not proven: Trump's lawyer worked as an intermediary between Trump and Russia.
Not proven: Trump is open to blackmail due to illicit sexual activities in Russia.
Note that not proven means that there is currently no publicly available evidence proving it, not that it has been proven false. Presumably when the Mueller investigation winds to a close we will get some definitive statements from Mueller regarding the final 4 items one way or another."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostHere's a summary from last month:
HOW TRUE IS THE TRUMP-RUSSIA DOSSIER? ONE YEAR LATER, WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT ITS CLAIMS:
...major parts of the dossier have been verified by subsequent investigations into Russian election meddling, while others still remain a mystery...
Verified: Former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page met with representatives of Russian state-owned oil giant Rosneft.
Verified: The Kremlin targeted educated youth and swing state voters during its cyber attacks in the 2016 campaign.
Verified: Trump maintains ties to rich businessmen from Azerbaijan.
Not proven: Russia had been cultivating Trump for years, or at all.
Not proven: Trump was offered real estate deals in Russia and turned them down.
Not proven: Trump's lawyer worked as an intermediary between Trump and Russia.
Not proven: Trump is open to blackmail due to illicit sexual activities in Russia.
Note that not proven means that there is currently no publicly available evidence proving it, not that it has been proven false. Presumably when the Mueller investigation winds to a close we will get some definitive statements from Mueller regarding the final 4 items one way or another.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostSo after all this time what has been verified amounts to nothing and you are left with unverified scurrilous gossip.
More interesting to me is the fact the warrant was renewed at least three times, strongly suggesting that the wiretaps were productive.
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Note that not proven means that there is currently no publicly available evidence proving it, not that it has been proven false.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by lao tzu View PostThis is an argument from silence.
More interesting to me is the fact the warrant was renewed at least three times, strongly suggesting that the wiretaps were productive.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe question, of course, is whether or not they should have ever been granted the warrant in the first place, and every indication is that the answer is no.
And, at one time, all FBI investigations were criminal. Post-9/11, that's no longer true, either. Page isn't under indictment, and the warrant has no relation to anyone who is under indictment or anyone who's accepted a plea agreement.
Indications are that this was instead a counter-intelligence investigation. Page was known to have been a recruitment target since the Pobodnyy case.
In the case of a counter-intelligence investigation, I'm not sure what remedies are appropriate.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThe question, of course, is whether or not they should have ever been granted the warrant in the first place, and every indication is that the answer is no.
That all said, the Russia probe is pretty clearly in the public interest, because Russia conspiring with political campaigns to affect the outcome of an election is a direct threat to democracy. So abolish the CIA by all means, and reform the FBI by all means, but these probes into Trump's campaign are pretty vital from a national-security standpoint (you can't have a foreign power affecting your elections!)."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by Starlight View PostI'm not a fan of secretive government agencies or surveillance. I would support the abolition of most of the US's 16 intelligence agencies and reduce the surveillance by over 99%.
That all said, the Russia probe is pretty clearly in the public interest, because Russia conspiring with political campaigns to affect the outcome of an election is a direct threat to democracy. So abolish the CIA by all means, and reform the FBI by all means, but these probes into Trump's campaign are pretty vital from a national-security standpoint (you can't have a foreign power affecting your elections!).
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Originally posted by RumTumTugger View PostWhy ONLY the U.S Starlight.
your hatred America and the American Ideas is comeing through very clearly here."I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
"[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by lao tzu View PostConstitution of United States of America 1789 (rev. 1992)
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.
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