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Thread: Carter Page and the fourth amendment

  1. #41
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The question, of course, is whether or not they should have ever been granted the warrant in the first place, and every indication is that the answer is no.
    Incriminating evidence gathered by an improper warrant, in the case of a criminal prosecution, has a clear remedy: Charges dismissed. Or at least that used to be the case. I can recall reading of more recent findings where the remedies involved court ordered changes to procedures, with the evidence still allowed.

    And, at one time, all FBI investigations were criminal. Post-9/11, that's no longer true, either. Page isn't under indictment, and the warrant has no relation to anyone who is under indictment or anyone who's accepted a plea agreement.

    Indications are that this was instead a counter-intelligence investigation. Page was known to have been a recruitment target since the Pobodnyy case.

    In that case, one of the Russian suspects, Victor Podobnyy who was posing as a diplomat and was later charged by federal prosecutors with acting as an unregistered agent of a foreign government was captured on tape in 2013 discussing an effort to get information and documents from Page. That discussion was detailed in a federal complaint filed against Podobnyy and two others.

    In the case of a counter-intelligence investigation, I'm not sure what remedies are appropriate.

  2. #42
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain Man View Post
    The question, of course, is whether or not they should have ever been granted the warrant in the first place, and every indication is that the answer is no.
    I'm not a fan of secretive government agencies or surveillance. I would support the abolition of most of the US's 16 intelligence agencies and reduce the surveillance by over 99%.

    That all said, the Russia probe is pretty clearly in the public interest, because Russia conspiring with political campaigns to affect the outcome of an election is a direct threat to democracy. So abolish the CIA by all means, and reform the FBI by all means, but these probes into Trump's campaign are pretty vital from a national-security standpoint (you can't have a foreign power affecting your elections!).

  3. #43
    Department Head
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    Quote Originally Posted by Starlight View Post
    I'm not a fan of secretive government agencies or surveillance. I would support the abolition of most of the US's 16 intelligence agencies and reduce the surveillance by over 99%.

    That all said, the Russia probe is pretty clearly in the public interest, because Russia conspiring with political campaigns to affect the outcome of an election is a direct threat to democracy. So abolish the CIA by all means, and reform the FBI by all means, but these probes into Trump's campaign are pretty vital from a national-security standpoint (you can't have a foreign power affecting your elections!).
    Why ONLY the U.S Starlight. your hatred America and the American Ideas is comeing through very clearly here.

  4. #44
    tWebber Starlight's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RumTumTugger View Post
    Why ONLY the U.S Starlight.
    Not only the US. I generally support the abolition and reduction of most intelligence agencies everywhere. I think my own country should entirely and completely abolish our one, and have zero. Most people on this forum are from the US though, so we mostly talk about the US here, and the US has by far the largest and most intelligence agencies in the world, so there is a lot of scope for reduction.

    your hatred America and the American Ideas is comeing through very clearly here.
    Suggestions as to how to improve your country are not exactly 'hatred'. Obviously your country has a lot of issues currently, and obviously the more advanced Western democracies have long-solved many of those problems (universal healthcare, independent police review authorities, gun control, government-provided rent-free accommodation for the homeless, no military-industrial complex, minimal corruption and lobbying affecting government, non-plurality voting systems providing for more than 2 political parties etc), so it makes sense for us non-Americans here to share our knowledge of the political solutions to many of the major problems your country faces.

  5. #45
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lao tzu View Post
    Constitution of United States of America 1789 (rev. 1992)

    Amendment IV

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
    I know Fake News tries to make memo all about Mueller, but main claim so far is abuse of power by some FBI people.
    Trump is basically "Bruce Wayne pretending to be a foppish retarded billionaire" tier genius, in case nerds need a simpler metaphor.

  6. #46
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    I know Fake News [is trying] to make [the] memo all about Mueller, but [the] main claim so far is abuse of power by some FBI people.
    Please use proper English, or post elsewhere.

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