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Thread: Underlying Presuppositions

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    And your answer is either ignorance or "nature did it."
    My answer for things I do not know about is "I don't know." My answer for things I do know about (so far) is "it's natural." I have yet to see a need to add a "god" into the equation. Remember - never add something to an explanation that is not strictly necessary to arrive at the conclusion. I am encouraged to believe that there is no god by the pattern I see in history of religious/supernatural explanations giving way to naturalistic ones, the absence of a supernatural experience in my own life, and the absence of any verified supernatural experiences in this around me (as well as the other things I listed in the other thread). These all provide evidence, to me, that god is a construct of the human imagination.

    But we keep coming back, Seer, to a basic impasse in our discussion. You include in your "baseline presuppositions" the statements "the Christian god is" and "the bible is the word of this god." As I understand it, for you these are as foundational as the core principles of mathematics and logic, or any other a priori truth. As a consequence, what I am saying to you is necessarily goobligook to you. It is analogous to you saying to me, "1 is not equal to 1 is true." I would scratch my head and question your sanity. Since I reject two fundamental presuppositions in your worldview (I do not consider them a priori true - but rather conclusions one reasons to), from your perspective you necessarily have to see me as just as incapable of rational thought as I would see you if you made that mathemattical proposition.

    That is not to say you are not entitled to your presuppositions. I just don't see how we get past that disconnect. The very fact that I reject what is a fundamental for you must put me in the category of "irrational," from your perspective.
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-09-2018 at 03:58 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

  2. #72
    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    It is what Lewis was arguing. That if everything (evolution) was random, then there is no reason to expect that we would have a rational mind.
    Evolution is not random. If creatures with rational minds are better able to survive and reproduce than creatures with irrational minds, then evolution will lead to creatures with rational minds.
    Starlight: "In America a lot of tap-water is contaminated with lead or chemicals from fracking, because the right-wing crazies are anti-regulation."
    Lilpixieoferror: "Another day another Starlight fable. What actually causes high lead levels in water is lead pipes or lead solder, not industrial waste from any source. Well, so much for this Starlight fable... I wonder what tomorrow’s made up story will be in his ‘I HATE AMERICAN CHRISTIANS!!!’ quest."

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    Evolution is not random. If creatures with rational minds are better able to survive and reproduce than creatures with irrational minds, then evolution will lead to creatures with rational minds.
    That's just your material evolutionary neurological programming talking.

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    Evolution is not random. If creatures with rational minds are better able to survive and reproduce than creatures with irrational minds, then evolution will lead to creatures with rational minds.
    No, that doesn't follow, evolution just cares about adaptive behavior, not true beliefs. As a matter of fact given naturalism beliefs are most likely epiphenomenal with no causal effect.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

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    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    That's just your material evolutionary neurological programming talking.
    So designed creatures can be programmed to have false views of reality? So much for the idea that theism would result in rationality...
    Starlight: "In America a lot of tap-water is contaminated with lead or chemicals from fracking, because the right-wing crazies are anti-regulation."
    Lilpixieoferror: "Another day another Starlight fable. What actually causes high lead levels in water is lead pipes or lead solder, not industrial waste from any source. Well, so much for this Starlight fable... I wonder what tomorrow’s made up story will be in his ‘I HATE AMERICAN CHRISTIANS!!!’ quest."

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    tWebber Roy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No, that doesn't follow, evolution just cares about adaptive behavior, not true beliefs.
    It does follow. Evolution 'cares' about anything that affects reproductive ability.
    As a matter of fact given naturalism beliefs are most likely epiphenomenal with no causal effect.
    That would only be true if no-one ever chose between actions based on their beliefs.
    Starlight: "In America a lot of tap-water is contaminated with lead or chemicals from fracking, because the right-wing crazies are anti-regulation."
    Lilpixieoferror: "Another day another Starlight fable. What actually causes high lead levels in water is lead pipes or lead solder, not industrial waste from any source. Well, so much for this Starlight fable... I wonder what tomorrow’s made up story will be in his ‘I HATE AMERICAN CHRISTIANS!!!’ quest."

  7. #77
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No, that doesn't follow, evolution just cares about adaptive behavior, not true beliefs.
    Behavior based on false beliefs will seldom be adaptive. Therefore it is reasonable to think natural selection would have wired our brains to produce true beliefs more often than not.

  8. #78
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    No, that doesn't follow, evolution just cares about adaptive behavior, not true beliefs. As a matter of fact given naturalism beliefs are most likely epiphenomenal with no causal effect.
    That is a regurgitaton of Plantinga's argument, which fails for the reasons I cited in my other post.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy View Post
    It does follow. Evolution 'cares' about anything that affects reproductive ability.
    So what? It still does not care about true beliefs as long as you reproduce.


    That would only be true if no-one ever chose between actions based on their beliefs.
    Well according to epiphenomenalism neurology, not beliefs, drive everything. Our conscious thought have no causal effect.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    That is a regurgitaton of Plantinga's argument, which fails for the reasons I cited in my other post.
    No Carp, if epiphenomenalism is true conscious beliefs play no causal role. Evolution does not care about beliefs.
    "We can understand hell in its aspect of privation. All your life an unattainable ecstasy has hovered just beyond the grasp of your consciousness. The day is coming when you will wake to find, beyond all hope, that you have attained it, or else, that it was within your reach and you have lost it forever.” C.S. Lewis

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