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Underlying Presuppositions

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  • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    If you don't know this yet about me, I don't really think much of quote mining. An argument from authority is meaningless if the authority is wrong and/or biased.
    Out of curiosity, are you at all familiar with Sam Harris?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      First, my subconscious is part of me, so that it functions at a level that I am not consciously aware of does not make it less me.
      Yes.
      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
        Out of curiosity, are you at all familiar with Sam Harris?
        Just what Seer quoted here.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
          Yes.
          I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • Originally posted by crepuscule View Post
            All that exists would encompass, well, everything that exists. Thus if the universe(s) had a cause or even a creator, that cause would also be part of ‘all that exists’.
            You are just playing word games. A creator outside of creation (I seem to be stuck with that word) is not a part of that creation. Because there is no word for all of "creation" that does not assume a creator you ignore what I have said.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Roy View Post
              I understood it just fine. Do you fail to grasp the difference between meaninglessness and incorrectness, or are you just unfamiliar with the longer words?
              I can understand what he wrote, but it is still nonsense.
              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                I'm not sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.
                I agree that the subconscious is an integral part of the person.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  You are just playing word games. A creator outside of creation (I seem to be stuck with that word) is not a part of that creation. Because there is no word for all of "creation" that does not assume a creator you ignore what I have said.
                  Permit me to try. I think you are saying that there are two choices: either the sum of everything that exists (this universe, other possible universes, parallel dimensions, etc.) is self-existent (and I would add, "or contains a self-existent component that got the whole ball rolling"); or there is a creator-being that is self-existent and IT started the whole ball rolling.

                  If that is correct - then, in general, I have to agree with you, with one caveat. We really don't know how the concept of causality applies outside of the universe we know/love. We don't know how/if time and/or space apply outside of this known universe. So there is at least a possibility that we are trying to apply concepts that are meaningful within this universe, to things outside this universe, and that this application may not work. So there may be a third (or fourth, or infinite number of) option(s) we cannot conceive of.
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                    I agree that the subconscious is an integral part of the person.
                    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      Just what Seer quoted here.
                      I see. He's a relatively popular atheist philosopher and neuroscientist, generally considered one of the "four horsemen" of the New Atheist movement.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        I see. He's a relatively popular atheist philosopher and neuroscientist, generally considered one of the "four horsemen" of the New Atheist movement.
                        I have to admit that I really don't chase the "atheist" authors. Having read a few in the past, my experience has been that they tend to be former theists with an axe to grind. After a while I got tired of the same old vitriol and the same failed arguments. Maybe the "New Atheist" (not even sure what that means) authors are different...?

                        The "four horsemen" metaphor is interesting...
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                          Out of curiosity, are you at all familiar with Sam Harris?
                          I didn't read much from him. I won't blame carpedm9587 of not having read much either. That whole 4 Horsemen thing got really old really fast. Of those guys it was really on P.Z Myers I was a fan of, and mostly only during the whole Dover trial. He's been intensely critical of atheists (or atheism as a movement) in general afterwards. Still being one of course. He has an intellectual integrity that I've always respected.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            I have to admit that I really don't chase the "atheist" authors. Having read a few in the past, my experience has been that they tend to be former theists with an axe to grind.
                            Eh, I don't think that's really Harris' background. Pretty sure he had a mostly secular Jewish upbringing, and a few years where he was a Buddhist, but that's about it.

                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            After a while I got tired of the same old vitriol and the same failed arguments. Maybe the "New Atheist" (not even sure what that means) authors are different...?

                            The "four horsemen" metaphor is interesting...
                            You haven't heard of "New Atheism" or the "four horsemen"? That's very surprising since it was all pretty popular when you were last posting here before the crash. It seems to me that they would have had to come up in conversation more than once with you. Basically all the New Atheism shtick is, is the sort of evangelical atheism you now see in the 21st century thanks to the internet and certain popular writers (the four horsemen) like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and Daniel Dennett, who all released books around about the same time about 10-15 years ago.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Leonhard View Post
                              I didn't read much from him. I won't blame carpedm9587 of not having read much either. That whole 4 Horsemen thing got really old really fast. Of those guys it was really on P.Z Myers I was a fan of, and mostly only during the whole Dover trial. He's been intensely critical of atheists (or atheism as a movement) in general afterwards. Still being one of course. He has an intellectual integrity that I've always respected.
                              I don't think much of Harris myself, but he's a relatively popular figure in the States, having appeared on plenty of news based talking head programs, and Bill Maher's show a few times, The Colbert Report and the like.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                Eh, I don't think that's really Harris' background. Pretty sure he had a mostly secular Jewish upbringing, and a few years where he was a Buddhist, but that's about it.



                                You haven't heard of "New Atheism" or the "four horsemen"? That's very surprising since it was all pretty popular when you were last posting here before the crash. It seems to me that they would have had to come up in conversation more than once with you. Basically all the New Atheism shtick is, is the sort of evangelical atheism you now see in the 21st century thanks to the internet and certain popular writers (the four horsemen) like Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, and Daniel Dennett, who all released books around about the same time about 10-15 years ago.
                                I do not recall hearing "the Four Horsemen" or "New Atheism" before. If we discussed it back then, I have no memory of it. Dawkins' work I know to some degree, but from years ago. I have not read him recently. The other three I do not know at all, even by name.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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