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Paul’s basket escape from Damascus (Robert Eisenman)

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  • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
    Regarding dating of Qumran documents, what do you make of the “baptismal stuff” that Eisenman talks about here? It starts at 22:15 and goes to 26:50. He is reading from the Community Rule (1QS).
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFTGW...vD_lYW6CibCtCw

    A slightly different translation is here:
    http://www.essene.com/History&Essenes/md.htm
    It says:-
    Of those who are to be excluded.
    Anyone who refuses to enter the (ideal) society of God and persists in walking in the stubbornness of his heart shall not be admitted to this community of God's truth. For inasmuch as his soul has revolted at the discipline entailed in a knowledge of God's righteous judgments, he has shown no real strength in amending his way of life, and therefore cannot be reckoned with the upright. The mental, physical and material resources of such a man are not to be introduced into the stock of the community, for such a man 'plows in the slime of wickedness' and 'there are stains on his repentance'. He is not honest in resolving the stubbornness of his heat. On paths of light he sees but darkness/ Such a man cannot be reckoned as among those essentially blameless. He cannot be cleared by mere ceremonies of atonement, nor cleansed by any waters of ablution, nor sanctified by immersion in lakes of rivers, nor purified by any bath. Unclean, unclean he remains so long as he rejects the government of God and refuses the discipline of communion with Him. For it is only through the spiritual apprehension of God's truth that man's ways can be properly directed. Only thus can all his iniquities be shriven so that he can gaze upon the true light of life. Only through the holy spirit can he achieve union with God's truth and be purged of all his iniquities. Only by a spirit of uprightness and humility can his sin be atoned. Only by the submission of his soul to all the ordinances of God can his flesh be made clean. Only thus can it really be sprinkled with waters of ablution. Only thus can it really be sanctified by waters of purification. And only thus can he really direct his steps to walk blamelessly through all the vicissitudes of his destiny in all the way of God in the manner which He has commanded, without turning either to the right or to the left and without overstepping any of God's words. Then indeed will he be acceptable before God like an atonement-offering which meets with His pleasure, and then indeed will he be admitted to the covenant of the community for ever.
    There's no question in my mind that John the Baptizer (and Jesus) came from this milieu, but we cannot be sure of any identifification with the specific community at Qumran, which we know had relationships (and disputes) with other like-minded individuals and groups that did not live in the community. Josephus supposedly spent time with someone named Banas who was probably similar. The biggest difference between Christian baptism and the practice of the community at Qumran seems to be that the latter practiced repeated and frequent ablutions to clense one from ritual impurity, whereas Christian baptism is only the beginning, once and for all, of a new Halakah (way of walking according to the Law), which would certainly not have been approved by Qumran, or by those Pharisees that had similar views. I may be wrong, but I think Eisenman has an overly monolithic view of the Pharisees, whereas I think that some would indeed have been very like minded with the people of Qumran. It is relatively easy to see the differences (and similarities) between Jesus and the Jews of Qumran, but John the Baptizer is a little more mysterious, probably somewhere in between Jesus and Qumran. Now, some early converts to Christianity may very well have been from Qumran-like thinkers, but it does not seem like all Christian Jews were of this mindset.

    By the way, the last couple of minutes of this video are hilarious, when both Hanan Eshel and Eisenman have their own microphones and are both talking and not listening to a word the other is saying. I agree with Eisenman in being willing to see first century CE dynamics in the scrolls. There were redactions that can support multiple, evolving interpretations. But be wary of any all encompassing historical theories.
    Last edited by robrecht; 05-29-2014, 08:00 AM.
    βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
    ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

    אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

    Comment


    • Originally posted by robrecht View Post
      There's no question in my mind that John the Baptizer (and Jesus) came from this milieu, but we cannot be sure of any identifification with the specific community at Qumran, which we know had relationships (and disputes) with other like-minded individuals and groups that did not live in the community. Josephus supposedly spent time with someone named Banas who was probably similar. The biggest difference between Christian baptism and the practice of the community at Qumran seems to be that the latter practiced repeated and frequent ablutions to clense one from ritual impurity, whereas Christian baptism is only the beginning, once and for all, of a new Halakah (way of walking according to the Law), which would certainly not have been approved by Qumran, or by those Pharisees that had similar views. I may be wrong, but I think Eisenman has an overly monolithic view of the Pharisees, whereas I think that some would indeed have been very like minded with the people of Qumran. It is relatively easy to see the differences (and similarities) between Jesus and the Jews of Qumran, but John the Baptizer is a little more mysterious, probably somewhere in between Jesus and Qumran. Now, some early converts to Christianity may very well have been from Qumran-like thinkers, but it does not seem like all Christian Jews were of this mindset.

      By the way, the last couple of minutes of this video are hilarious, when both Hanan Eshel and Eisenman have their own microphones and are both talking and not listening to a word the other is saying. I agree with Eisenman in being willing to see first century CE dynamics in the scrolls. There were redactions that can support multiple, evolving interpretations. But be wary of any all encompassing historical theories.
      Yeah, I heard it. It’s great raw footage. The two parts together run to about 3 hours. I have also listened to his Dead Sea Scrolls 2 lecture series (given to a class of about 12 students) which covers the same ground in more detail. There is a lot of information here but it is starting to make some sense.

      The big picture seems to be, according to Eisenman, that the Christianity that survived (just like the Judaism that survived) was that which accommodated itself to Roman Imperialism. It was Hellenised and Paulinised as it went overseas. Militant, subversive groups like those at Qumran were wiped out. He calls the Qumran community an aboriginal Christian group. There are traces of the aboriginal movement in the New Testament and it is unadulterated in the Qumran documents.

      He is also very suspicious of opinions coming from anyone “under authority”. I can see his point.
      Last edited by firstfloor; 05-29-2014, 09:33 AM.
      “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
      “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
      “not all there” - you know who you are

      Comment


      • Originally posted by firstfloor View Post
        Yeah, I heard it. It’s great raw footage. The two parts together run to about 3 hours. I have also listened to his Dead Sea Scrolls 2 lecture series (given to a class of about 12 students) which covers the same ground in more detail. There is a lot of information here but it is starting to make some sense.

        The big picture seems to be, according to Eisenman, that the Christianity that survived (just like the Judaism that survived) was that which accommodated itself to Roman Imperialism. It was Hellenised and Paulinised as it went overseas. Militant, subversive groups like those at Qumran were wiped out. He calls the Qumran community an aboriginal Christian group. There are traces of the aboriginal movement in the New Testament and it is unadulterated in the Qumran documents.

        He is also very suspicious of opinions coming from anyone “under authority”. I can see his point.
        I largely agree with Eisenman on this point as well, except Pauline Christianity, at least during the time of Paul, was thoroughly and completely Jewish in my opinion, messianic Jewish, to be sure, whereas Qumran Jewish was still waiting for their Messiahs, and Paul seems to have seen the fulfillment of the Law very similarly to Jesus and the Letter of James, which Qumran thoroughly rejected. To understand Paul in his Jewish context, one one must abandon the 16th century polemics of Luther and his contemporizing and anti-Semitic exegesis of Paul. Paul was thoroughly hellenized, no doubt, but so was the Jewish government in Judea, and so was much of Galilee at the time of Jesus.
        βλέπομεν γὰρ ἄρτι δι᾿ ἐσόπτρου ἐν αἰνίγματι, τότε δὲ πρόσωπον πρὸς πρόσωπον·
        ἄρτι γινώσκω ἐκ μέρους, τότε δὲ ἐπιγνώσομαι καθὼς καὶ ἐπεγνώσθην.

        אָכֵ֕ן אַתָּ֖ה אֵ֣ל מִסְתַּתֵּ֑ר אֱלֹהֵ֥י יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל מוֹשִֽׁיעַ׃

        Comment


        • I was wondering about the possibility that Jesus was taken away by James for reburial at Qumran and found this:
          http://craigaevans.com/Burial_Traditions.pdf
          “It is concluded that it is very probable that Jesus was buried, in keeping with Jewish customs, and was not left hanging on his cross, nor was cast into a ditch, exposed to animals. It is further concluded that it is very probable that some of Jesus’ followers (such as the women mentioned in the Gospel accounts) knew where Jesus’ body had been placed and intended to mark the location, perfume his body, and mourn, in keeping with Jewish customs. The intention was to take possession of Jesus’ remains, at some point in the future, and transfer them to his family burial place. In my estimation, discussion of the resurrection of Jesus should take into account a known place of burial. Interpretation of the resurrection should take into account, not only Jewish beliefs about resurrection, but Jewish beliefs about death and burial.”
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

          Comment

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