Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 35

Thread: Re-conversion

  1. #1
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,147
    Amen (Given)
    479
    Amen (Received)
    331

    Re-conversion

    Recently Jen Hatmaker appeared on Enns' podcast. She shared her story of de-conversion and re-conversion. This prompted a response from reformed professor Dr. Kruger. Jared Byas aka Pete's sidekick responded in kind.

    My thoughts: I certainly agree with Dr. Kruger's position for the most part. I have attempted to give Peter Enns and his ilk the benefit of the doubt, but I cannot in good conscience consider his theological trajectory anything other than apostasy. I believe his attempt to retain the Christian label is well meaning, but ultimately futile as his theology finds it home in agnosticism (with a touch of "historical" Jesus-love). I sympathize with those who doubt and experience unbelief, as we all do, but I also believe that those born again/regenerated by the Holy Spirit cannot and will not remain in a consistent state of doubt and uncertainty. Those indwelt by the Spirit of God will eventually believe and rest in the gospel. You must be born again. You must be born again -- all else flows from that.
    Last edited by Scrawly; 02-10-2018 at 06:57 AM.

  2. Amen Adrift amen'd this post.
  3. #2
    tWebber
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    132
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    33
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    Recently Jen Hatmaker appeared on Enns' podcast. She shared her story of de-conversion and re-conversion. This prompted a response from reformed professor Dr. Kruger. Jared Byas aka Pete's sidekick responded in kind.

    My thoughts: I certainly agree with Dr. Kruger's position for the most part. I have attempted to give Peter Enns and his ilk the benefit of the doubt, but I cannot in good conscience consider his theological trajectory anything other than apostasy. I believe his attempt to retain the Christian label is well meaning, but ultimately futile as his theology finds it home in agnosticism (with a touch of "historical" Jesus-love). I sympathize with those who doubt and experience unbelief, as we all do, but I also believe that those born again/regenerated by the Holy Spirit cannot and will not remain in a consistent state of doubt and uncertainty. Those indwelt by the Spirit of God will eventually believe and rest in the gospel. You must be born again. You must be born again -- all else flows from that.
    But why does a differing opinion infer apostasy? I am not familiar enough with Enns or Hatmaker to really comment on their theology. But I also wonder if they are not incorrect, that is, not easily dismissed.

    I suppose the best example of the inadequacy of the inerrancy controversy is the stories of Jonah and Genesis 1 - 3, some will place those entirely within myth and not history, others will reject any mythos and insist on historicity. But each loses something important for the faith. All I can say with certainty is that it is not impossible to be swallowed by a whale and come out alive.

    But can the born again believer go through periods of doubt, and still be heaven bound? Many will say it is impossible, evidence that one is not saved to begin with. Is the regenerate man immune from accepting errors, and holding those errors to the end of this life? That does seem to flow from your post.

    It is a thought provoking OP. I'll recap some points of the Kruger article. These seem to be the basic template for a rippingly good testimony.
    1.) Recount the negatives of your past
    2.) Position yourself as the offended part, bravely confronting the "establishment"
    3.) Portray yourself as an honest seeker and the old group as mired in dogmatism
    4.) Insist your new theology is bible based and the old a rejection of it
    5.) Attack the character of the old group and emphasize the positive of your new faith group.

  4. #3
    tWebber
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    1,147
    Amen (Given)
    479
    Amen (Received)
    331
    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    But why does a differing opinion infer apostasy?
    It doesn't.

    I am not familiar enough with Enns or Hatmaker to really comment on their theology. But I also wonder if they are not incorrect, that is, not easily dismissed.
    They needn't be dismissed but they ought to be engaged with the knowledge that they are dyed in the wool liberal Christian's.

    I suppose the best example of the inadequacy of the inerrancy controversy is the stories of Jonah and Genesis 1 - 3, some will place those entirely within myth and not history, others will reject any mythos and insist on historicity. But each loses something important for the faith.
    Right, but liberal Christian's such as Dr. Enns attempt to deconstruct Christianity well beyond the sphere of Genesis 1-3 and debate on inerrancy.

    All I can say with certainty is that it is not impossible to be swallowed by a whale and come out alive.
    Right.

    But can the born again believer go through periods of doubt, and still be heaven bound?
    Yes.

    Many will say it is impossible, evidence that one is not saved to begin with.
    I don't think I've come across a Christian who believes that.

    Is the regenerate man immune from accepting errors, and holding those errors to the end of this life? That does seem to flow from your post.
    No. I stated that the regenerate individual will eventually believe the gospel and submit to Apostolic doctrine.

    It is a thought provoking OP. I'll recap some points of the Kruger article. These seem to be the basic template for a rippingly good testimony.
    1.) Recount the negatives of your past
    2.) Position yourself as the offended part, bravely confronting the "establishment"
    3.) Portray yourself as an honest seeker and the old group as mired in dogmatism
    4.) Insist your new theology is bible based and the old a rejection of it
    5.) Attack the character of the old group and emphasize the positive of your new faith group.
    Yes and it is my contention that many of these re-conversions and reconstructions of Christianity are in actuality nothing short of downright apostasy and flagrant heresy.

  5. Amen Adrift, Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  6. #4
    Professor Cerebrum123's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    8,885
    Amen (Given)
    16729
    Amen (Received)
    3266
    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    But why does a differing opinion infer apostasy? I am not familiar enough with Enns or Hatmaker to really comment on their theology. But I also wonder if they are not incorrect, that is, not easily dismissed.

    I suppose the best example of the inadequacy of the inerrancy controversy is the stories of Jonah and Genesis 1 - 3, some will place those entirely within myth and not history, others will reject any mythos and insist on historicity. But each loses something important for the faith. All I can say with certainty is that it is not impossible to be swallowed by a whale and come out alive.

    But can the born again believer go through periods of doubt, and still be heaven bound? Many will say it is impossible, evidence that one is not saved to begin with. Is the regenerate man immune from accepting errors, and holding those errors to the end of this life? That does seem to flow from your post.

    It is a thought provoking OP. I'll recap some points of the Kruger article. These seem to be the basic template for a rippingly good testimony.
    1.) Recount the negatives of your past
    2.) Position yourself as the offended part, bravely confronting the "establishment"
    3.) Portray yourself as an honest seeker and the old group as mired in dogmatism
    4.) Insist your new theology is bible based and the old a rejection of it
    5.) Attack the character of the old group and emphasize the positive of your new faith group.
    Generally someone like Enns rejects far more than the early chapters of Genesis. There is only one real response to them once they have rejected so much.

    John 3:12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

  7. #5
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    645
    Amen (Given)
    189
    Amen (Received)
    83
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    [I]t is my contention that many of these re-conversions and reconstructions of Christianity are in actuality nothing short of downright apostasy and flagrant heresy.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  8. #6
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    645
    Amen (Given)
    189
    Amen (Received)
    83
    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    [I] have attempted to give Peter Enns and his ilk the benefit of the doubt, but I cannot in good conscience consider his theological trajectory anything other than apostasy. [] [par. 2]
    I am glad to learn that you have reached that conclusion.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  9. Amen Adrift, Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  10. #7
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    645
    Amen (Given)
    189
    Amen (Received)
    83
    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    But why does a differing opinion infer apostasy? I am not familiar enough with Enns or Hatmaker to really comment on their theology. But I also wonder if they are not incorrect, that is, not easily dismissed. [par. 1]
    As reluctant as we might be to do so in the post-modern era, theological boundaries/lines in the sand must be drawn. In the quest to be open, tolerant, unbigoted, and/or understanding, one can lose sight of the fact that heterodox teachings do exist, and are not to be treated as minor theoretical differences. Being overly patient with and overexposing oneself to seriously false teaching will, over time, erode doctrinal discernment.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  11. Amen Thoughtful Monk, Scrawly amen'd this post.
  12. #8
    tWebber
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    132
    Amen (Given)
    0
    Amen (Received)
    33
    I will say up front that I haven't read Enns writing, or his infamous Incarnation and Inspiration, but have listened to the controversy surrounding it. And I also admit that I find it bizarre. The same points Enns raises and is criticized for are the points which are used by his critics (such as the use of the concept of an evolution in Jewish thinking). The appeals to tradition from within the reformed camp have echoes of the Catholic apologists (I am Catholic, so I see appeals to tradition in a different light than most evangelicals). And the novel re interpretations of the Old Testament by Jesus himself suggest that the New Testament does stretch the Old in surprising ways.

    I do not know which other theological positions of Enns suggest that he is apostate. Perhaps someone could provide examples. What truths of the faith has Enns rejected?

    I wonder if the charges of apostasy stem form an all too common definition of the Body of Christ which is restricted to specific denomination. But maybe that is best set aside for now, I will start a thread on it.

  13. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  14. #9
    tWebber Thoughtful Monk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    569
    Amen (Given)
    209
    Amen (Received)
    222
    Personally, I have come to find discussions over salvation too frustrating. Beyond the need to be saved, God doesn't seem to provide a real clear explanation of the process. I am very content to leave this up to God.

    I think the possibility of falling away and reconversion is possible. I think an argument could be constructed that Peter did exactly that when he denied Jesus three times and then later Jesus restored him. I don't think its very likely. I find Hebrews 6:4-6 too strong of an argument against reconversion.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    My time to be on TWeb is unpredictable. It may take a few days for me to see your post and respond.

  15. Amen Rushing Jaws, Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  16. #10
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Next to you
    Faith
    Christian
    Gender
    Male
    Posts
    8,820
    Amen (Given)
    1437
    Amen (Received)
    3815
    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I will say up front that I haven't read Enns writing, or his infamous Incarnation and Inspiration
    I&I isn't all that bad. As he himself has admitted, his positions has shifted since it was written.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •