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Thread: Re-conversion

  1. #11
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I will say up front that I haven't read Enns writing, or his infamous Incarnation and Inspiration, but have listened to the controversy surrounding it. And I also admit that I find it bizarre. The same points Enns raises and is criticized for are the points which are used by his critics (such as the use of the concept of an evolution in Jewish thinking). The appeals to tradition from within the reformed camp have echoes of the Catholic apologists (I am Catholic, so I see appeals to tradition in a different light than most evangelicals). And the novel re interpretations of the Old Testament by Jesus himself suggest that the New Testament does stretch the Old in surprising ways.

    I do not know which other theological positions of Enns suggest that he is apostate. Perhaps someone could provide examples. What truths of the faith has Enns rejected?

    I wonder if the charges of apostasy stem form an all too common definition of the Body of Christ which is restricted to specific denomination. But maybe that is best set aside for now, I will start a thread on it.
    He implicitly regards Yahweh as a tribal deity on par with the god of the Moabites, Chemosh, for example. He denies necessity of faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins, denies categories such as "saved" and "lost". Denies the gospel or expresses total apathy in regards to it's proclamation, etc. This all becomes painfully apparent if you familiarize yourself with his writings. If he were to "examine" himself and "test" himself to see if he is in the faith as proclaimed by the Apostle's, I believe he would conclude that he is not. He is at home with types such as Rob Bell and Brian McLaren, and their theology is at home in agnosticism, humanism, and the new age -- not biblical Christianity.

  2. #12
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Matthew 13:3..."A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”

  3. Amen Rushing Jaws, Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  4. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    I sympathize with those who doubt and experience unbelief, as we all do, but I also believe that those born again/regenerated by the Holy Spirit cannot and will not remain in a consistent state of doubt and uncertainty. Those indwelt by the Spirit of God will eventually believe and rest in the gospel. You must be born again. You must be born again -- all else flows from that.
    I don't agree with this assessment. I believe that God makes use of all believers and all types of personalities.

    I will use myself as an example. I am a naturally skeptical person...which may be why I am a scientist. However, it is this skepticism that has lead me to Christ. My journey was largely an intellectual one and not an emotional one. This is where I struggle as I am not really an emotional person. I have problems trying to apply logic and reason to too many aspects of my life. I am aware of this. However, I believe that God uses my predispositions to share the good news with others of a similar mindset.

    Believe me, I wish I was not like this. It is not a fun place to be. I beg and pray for God to change me so that I may be able to rest in the Gospel more fully. That being said, God gave me the gift of intellectual curiosity. As such I deal with it and thank God for the blessings that he has bestowed on me. A lot of people have gifts that are also curses...why should I be any different?

    I live in a world of science and empiricism. I am constantly bombarded with other's beliefs of materialism, reductionism, etc. Being a fallible human being, it takes its toll. I continue to doubt and be uncertain (it comes and goes) but I never give up on my faith in Christ. When I am challenged by skeptics, I fully admit that I may be wrong, that I am not certain, and that I don't have all of the answers. Instead of my uncertainty being met with derision, they usually put their guard down and listen more attentively. I have yet to convert anyone but I don't give up. The one thing that I have been told by my skeptic friends is that they no longer view belief in God as irrational, delusional, and for the simple minded. I consider this a small victory.

    If I were to take your warning of being born again (not entirely sure what that means exactly) as a necessity, I would give up. I am just not made that way. However, I don't think that means that I cannot believe that I need a Savior and that Christ was the incarnation of the Word. Maybe my faith is too one dimensional, I fully accept that this may be a possibility and I am working on this.


    Furthremore, I don't take Genesis as a historical record. I take Genesis to be a story about creation. Why would God tell us a story about how he created the universe? The same reason that I tell stories to my children when they ask about complex topics that they have no frame of reference for. How could we as limited humans understand God's act of creation? The real explanation would probably be more like...God spoke. That is great but it also wouldn't satisfy our desire for a little more explanation. I don't think that this makes me a liberal. I believe that Jesus was God's son (the Messiah) who died on the cross for our sins, was physically resurrected from the dead, and will return at some future time to judge the living and the dead. Even if I don't think that Johan was really swallowed by a whale...how would this make me a liberal Christian? I would like to apologize in advance if this was not a point that you were trying to make.

  5. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  6. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by element771 View Post
    I don't agree with this assessment. I believe that God makes use of all believers and all types of personalities.

    I will use myself as an example. I am a naturally skeptical person...which may be why I am a scientist. However, it is this skepticism that has lead me to Christ. My journey was largely an intellectual one and not an emotional one. This is where I struggle as I am not really an emotional person. I have problems trying to apply logic and reason to too many aspects of my life. I am aware of this. However, I believe that God uses my predispositions to share the good news with others of a similar mindset.

    Believe me, I wish I was not like this. It is not a fun place to be. I beg and pray for God to change me so that I may be able to rest in the Gospel more fully. That being said, God gave me the gift of intellectual curiosity. As such I deal with it and thank God for the blessings that he has bestowed on me. A lot of people have gifts that are also curses...why should I be any different?

    I live in a world of science and empiricism. I am constantly bombarded with other's beliefs of materialism, reductionism, etc. Being a fallible human being, it takes its toll. I continue to doubt and be uncertain (it comes and goes) but I never give up on my faith in Christ. When I am challenged by skeptics, I fully admit that I may be wrong, that I am not certain, and that I don't have all of the answers. Instead of my uncertainty being met with derision, they usually put their guard down and listen more attentively. I have yet to convert anyone but I don't give up. The one thing that I have been told by my skeptic friends is that they no longer view belief in God as irrational, delusional, and for the simple minded. I consider this a small victory.

    If I were to take your warning of being born again (not entirely sure what that means exactly) as a necessity, I would give up. I am just not made that way. However, I don't think that means that I cannot believe that I need a Savior and that Christ was the incarnation of the Word. Maybe my faith is too one dimensional, I fully accept that this may be a possibility and I am working on this.


    Furthremore, I don't take Genesis as a historical record. I take Genesis to be a story about creation. Why would God tell us a story about how he created the universe? The same reason that I tell stories to my children when they ask about complex topics that they have no frame of reference for. How could we as limited humans understand God's act of creation? The real explanation would probably be more like...God spoke. That is great but it also wouldn't satisfy our desire for a little more explanation. I don't think that this makes me a liberal. I believe that Jesus was God's son (the Messiah) who died on the cross for our sins, was physically resurrected from the dead, and will return at some future time to judge the living and the dead. Even if I don't think that Johan was really swallowed by a whale...how would this make me a liberal Christian? I would like to apologize in advance if this was not a point that you were trying to make.
    When I stated that one must be born again, I meant that one must be regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order to be a genuine Christian. When I stated that "those born again/regenerated by the Holy Spirit cannot and will not remain in a consistent state of doubt and uncertainty", I should have re-emphasized that this flavor of doubt and uncertainty applies to those who have deconstructed/de-converted from biblical Christianity and reconstructed/re-converted to a belief system and worldview that is at odds with and in opposition to biblical, gospel centered Christianity.

  7. #15
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    When I stated that one must be born again, I meant that one must be regenerated and indwelt by the Holy Spirit in order to be a genuine Christian. When I stated that "those born again/regenerated by the Holy Spirit cannot and will not remain in a consistent state of doubt and uncertainty", I should have re-emphasized that this flavor of doubt and uncertainty applies to those who have deconstructed/de-converted from biblical Christianity and reconstructed/re-converted to a belief system and worldview that is at odds with and in opposition to biblical, gospel centered Christianity.
    My apologies if that came off as a long diatribe given what you meant.

  8. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by element771 View Post
    My apologies if that came off as a long diatribe given what you meant.
    Not at all! Thanks for your input.

  9. #17
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Matthew 13:3..."A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop—a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.”
    Correction(s):

    Matthew 13.3b–9: ‘“ 3A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop – a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear”’(NIV).*

    * 2011 anglicised text edition.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. … The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  10. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  11. #18
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Correction(s):

    Matthew 13.3b–9: ‘“ 3A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop – a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear”’(NIV).*

    * 2011 anglicised text edition.
    Really? wow. Get a life.

  12. #19
    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Really? [W]ow. Get a life.
    Is employing proper grammar and punctuation, superscripting scriptural verses, and including the proper citation of the English Bible version(s) one is utilising in a given post too much to require of oneself?
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. … The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

    <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>


    Farewell. (Sat., 24 Mar. 2018)

  13. Amen Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  14. #20
    Must...have...caffeine One Bad Pig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    Is employing proper grammar and punctuation, superscripting scriptural verses, and including the proper citation of the English Bible version(s) one is utilising in a given post too much to require of oneself?
    His grammar is fine. He's merely missing the notation "internal citations omitted."

    /pedant
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