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Thread: Re-conversion

  1. #31
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scrawly View Post
    Recently Jen Hatmaker appeared on Enns' podcast. She shared her story of de-conversion and re-conversion. This prompted a response from reformed professor Dr. Kruger. Jared Byas aka Pete's sidekick responded in kind.
    I have no interest in listening to a podcast, and since I could find no transcript, I don't know what Jen actually said. However, I did read the response and the counter-response.

    Apart from the articles linked here, and the Wikipedia entry on Enns, I have no knowledge of any of these people.

    My thoughts: I certainly agree with Dr. Kruger's position for the most part.
    I found his article, especially its tone, to be arrogant, condescending, and dismissive. I skimmed some of the comments, and found I identified much more with those by both Tringalis. Naturally, I also agreed much more with Jared than with Mike.

    I have attempted to give Peter Enns and his ilk the benefit of the doubt, but I cannot in good conscience consider his theological trajectory anything other than apostasy. I believe his attempt to retain the Christian label is well meaning, but ultimately futile as his theology finds it home in agnosticism (with a touch of "historical" Jesus-love). I sympathize with those who doubt and experience unbelief, as we all do, but I also believe that those born again/regenerated by the Holy Spirit cannot and will not remain in a consistent state of doubt and uncertainty.
    I have no desire to return to my fundier days of yore, but I admit I do miss the certitude.

    Those indwelt by the Spirit of God will eventually believe and rest in the gospel. You must be born again. You must be born again -- all else flows from that.
    This of course sounds a bit bass-ackwards to those of us who see Scripture teaching something other than the Calvinistic "RPF!" that was being thrown around on some discussion boards a decade or more ago.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  2. #32
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I will say up front that I haven't read Enns writing, or his infamous Incarnation and Inspiration, but have listened to the controversy surrounding it. And I also admit that I find it bizarre. The same points Enns raises and is criticized for are the points which are used by his critics (such as the use of the concept of an evolution in Jewish thinking). The appeals to tradition from within the reformed camp have echoes of the Catholic apologists (I am Catholic, so I see appeals to tradition in a different light than most evangelicals). And the novel re interpretations of the Old Testament by Jesus himself suggest that the New Testament does stretch the Old in surprising ways.

    I do not know which other theological positions of Enns suggest that he is apostate. Perhaps someone could provide examples. What truths of the faith has Enns rejected?

    I wonder if the charges of apostasy stem form an all too common definition of the Body of Christ which is restricted to specific denomination. But maybe that is best set aside for now, I will start a thread on it.
    I'd never before heard of Incarnation and Inspiration (or at least it did not register). But, mostly by coincidence, while looking for info about John Walton, I came upon this article (by a completely different "Jared"), which seems to touch on similar issues.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  3. #33
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    As I mentioned earlier, Inspiration and Incarnation isn't all that liberal, especially compared to his more recent writings. He has indicated that he still held to inerrancy at the time he wrote it; he no longer does.

    It's been a few years since I read it but I wasn't all that impressed by some of his arguments. He tried to argue for an internal contradiction based on passages in Proverbs right next to each other that seem to contradict each other. That isn't even a problem with Proverbs, which isn't meant to be read as strict, literal moral instructions the way some people assume. It seems reasonable to give an author the benefit of the doubt that he isn't schizophrenic and blatantly contradicting himself from one sentence to the next. Enns acknowledges all this within the context of the wisdom literature but it seemed like a strange thing to make a big deal out of.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

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  4. #34
    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    As I mentioned earlier, Inspiration and Incarnation isn't all that liberal, especially compared to his more recent writings. He has indicated that he still held to inerrancy at the time he wrote it; he no longer does.
    Ah, ok, I wasn't sure about the direction he'd moved when I read in your post that his views had changed.


    It's been a few years since I read it but I wasn't all that impressed by some of his arguments. He tried to argue for an internal contradiction based on passages in Proverbs right next to each other that seem to contradict each other. ...
    Well that IS silly. My very favorite couplet is Prov. 26:4-5.


    That isn't even a problem with Proverbs, which isn't meant to be read as strict, literal moral instructions the way some people assume. It seems reasonable to give an author the benefit of the doubt that he isn't schizophrenic and blatantly contradicting himself from one sentence to the next. Enns acknowledges all this within the context of the wisdom literature but it seemed like a strange thing to make a big deal out of.
    Right. I have problems with some definitions of "inerrancy," and some doubts about its relevancy, given that even the vast majority of inerrantists hold only to inerrancy of the autographs, not to inerrancy of transmission or translation or of any particular hermeneutical approach. But the stuff you're talking about seems like niggling.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

  5. Amen KingsGambit, Rushing Jaws amen'd this post.
  6. #35
    tWebber Rushing Jaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    That is very condescending and annoying of you.
    Fraternal correction is a Work of Mercy. One presumes that fraternal/sororal correction of linguistic solecisms is included I’m with the OP on this.

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