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Thread: Who is "in" the Body?

  1. #21
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Yeah, I mentioned that.
    Well there you go then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    In the case of a Mormon, it's a totally wrong theology, not an underdeveloped one. So, sure, if we see error, it's our responsibility to call it out.
    Correct, but from the Mormon's perspective, they are a Christian. Which I assumed was the sort of thing the OP was trying to get at. Who is in the Body? Is the Mormon? From the Mormon's perspective they are. From the orthodox Christian's perspective they aren't. Perhaps you're talking past the OP though, or maybe I misunderstood it.

  2. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  3. #22
    tWebber Thoughtful Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Interesting. I think this list could get a number of people in trouble. So, for instance, some Christian theologians believe that God created the universe (including time) sans time, and then upon it's creation entered time (this is a view held by people like William Lane Craig). Lots of Christians, even Christians on this forum, would take issue with your view of an inerrant scripture, and/or that it's the only reliable revelation of God. And there are even some Christian scholars (who might otherwise be considered "orthodox") who doubt the virgin birth narrative.
    Considering I don't even mention creation, I'm not sure you got that from.

    Mainly I use my list for when I am in a discussion or church shopping. Helps me sort out is the issue at hand something I view as essential and worth fighting over or withdrawing from fellowship or can good people of good faith disagree on the matter. I've seen too many vicious fights in the latter category.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    My time to be on TWeb is unpredictable. It may take a few days for me to see your post and respond.

  4. #23
    tWebber Thoughtful Monk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I have some people who come from a group home down the street, and though adults, they function more at the 12 year old or below level. We love them and accept them, and some of them claim to be "Christians". They haven't got a clue about inerrancy or the Apostle's Creed (whatever version) or apologetics. A couple Wednesday nights ago, at our fellowship meal, one of them asked if they could say the blessing before the meal. I consented, knowing that if they messed it up too badly, the rest of the people were mature enough to understand "the effort". The lady prayed the most beautiful and sincere "childlike faith" prayer I've heard in a long long time.
    Having had similar experiences, I heartily concur with you.
    "For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." Hosea 6:6

    My time to be on TWeb is unpredictable. It may take a few days for me to see your post and respond.

  5. #24
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
    Considering I don't even mention creation, I'm not sure you got that from.
    I know you didn't. I was explaining someone like Craig's view. He believes that God is in time (upon the creation of the universe) rather than outside of time, which would seemingly go against one of your essentials (unless I somehow misunderstood you).

    Quote Originally Posted by Thoughtful Monk View Post
    Mainly I use my list for when I am in a discussion or church shopping. Helps me sort out is the issue at hand something I view as essential and worth fighting over or withdrawing from fellowship or can good people of good faith disagree on the matter. I've seen too many vicious fights in the latter category.
    Ah, so these are not necessarily essentials of the Body....those things that would separate a Christian from a non-Christian, but personal essentials that you look for upon joining a church? If so, I guess I failed to see the relation to the OP.

  6. #25
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    For those replying to this thread, I think it might be important to know that it's a split from this thread by Scrawly. Basically Scrawly is discussing the concept of re-conversion, specifically the type of re-conversion that happens to people who had deconverted from a more Evangelical and/or orthodox Christianity and reconverted to a more liberal and/or heterodox Christianity. The example given is of Jen Hatmaker, a relatively popular Christian author who on a recent podcast hosted by Peter Enns (a controversial Biblical scholar) declared her deconversion from what she believed to be an anti-homosexual intolerant Christianity, to a reconversion towards a much more liberal and accepting Christianity that sees the LGBQT movement as consistent with biblical Christianity. Scrawly points to a couple articles on this subject, notably one by Biblical scholar Michael J. Kruger called The Power of De-Conversion Stories: How Jen Hatmaker is Trying to Change Minds About the Bible. In this particular article, Prof. Kruger is pointing out a common theme that's come about recently where apostates to Christianity now often evangelize to the saved in order to de-Christianize them. But nearly as bad is a new type of re-convert (like Rob Bell, Peter Enns, and Hatmaker) who wants to move orthodox evangelicals towards a more liberal Christianity. Kruger names 5 techniques that re-converts use in order to make this happen, among them is to suggest that we are all on a journey, and that there is nothing more offensive than being dogmatic about correct theology.

    Hopefully understanding the context that the OP was written in will help make sense of what he's asking about. I highly suggest checking out Prof. Kruger's article at the link above. It's good stuff, and demonstrates where the issue really lies.

  7. Amen The Remonstrant amen'd this post.
  8. #26
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    Ah, but then there's Romans 10:9,

    Scripture Verse:

    If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

    © Copyright Original Source



    Who is right, Luke or Paul? Or are they both right, and "Believe in the Lord Jesus" would include things like believing that God exists, that Jesus exists, that Jesus is the Christ, the incarnate Word of God, that we are sinners in need of redemption, that Jesus was crucified for our sins, and was raised from the dead? That's the question that's being asked, I think. Anyone can declare they believe in the Lord Jesus. What the OP is attempting to do is figure out what it means to believe in him.
    The question was how much can be dropped. It is not in our ability to know who believes (trusts has faith in or gives credence to, in my understanding) in the Lord, but a declaration does not equal belief.

    My bottom line is that when two scripture verses seem to disagree, is I assume both are true and try to see what the correct understanding may be.

    ETA: I confess to not responding strictly in accord with the OP op in Scrawly's thread. Take my response for what it is worth.
    Last edited by Jedidiah; 02-12-2018 at 12:03 AM.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  9. #27
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    I think this list makes too many things essential. I don't think holding to inerrancy is necessary to be a Christian, for instance. Nor would I say it about the virgin birth, though I don't see any good reason to reject the virgin birth.
    I definitely think the virgin birth is essential, or at the very least, anyone who consciously denies the virgin birth is not a Christian. It would essentially be the same as denying Jesus' divinity.

  10. #28
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    The question was how much can be dropped. It is not in our ability to know who believes (trusts has faith in or gives credence to, in my understanding) in the Lord, but a declaration does not equal belief.
    I think it is, at least to some degree. After all, Jesus himself tells us that we will know some by their fruit. I don't think that gives us warrant to be overly critical of everyone and anyone, and surely only God himself knows the damned from the saved, but that doesn't mean that we have no way of telling whatsoever. The John Shelby Spongs of this world are certainly false prophets and are passing on bad fruit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    My bottom line is that when two scripture verses seem to disagree, is I assume both are true and try to see what the correct understanding may be.
    I agree, which is why when we come to very simple passages like "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved" we have to ask ourselves what it means to "believe in the Lord", especially when we have other passages that go on and say that we need to confess that Jesus is Lord, and believe in our hearts that God raised Jesus from the dead, and yet more passages that go on and tell us that we must recognize our own sins, and Jesus redemptive power over our sin, and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    ETA: I confess to not responding strictly in accord with the OP op in Scrawly's thread. Take my response for what it is worth.

  11. Amen Cerebrum123 amen'd this post.
  12. #29
    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I definitely think the virgin birth is essential, or at the very least, anyone who consciously denies the virgin birth is not a Christian. It would essentially be the same as denying Jesus' divinity.
    I don't think Jesus's divinity is dependent on Mary's virginity. My understanding is that is based on certain Catholic understandings of sex around the time of Augustine (?)
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

    All cruelty springs from weakness. - Seneca the Younger

  13. #30
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I definitely think the virgin birth is essential, or at the very least, anyone who consciously denies the virgin birth is not a Christian. It would essentially be the same as denying Jesus' divinity.
    Yeah, that's a tricky one. I think some scholars who would consider themselves (and who are considered by others) Christian, consider the Virgin birth legendary embellishment. If memory serves, I believe Richard Rohrbaugh thinks the Virgin birth legendary though I believe he accepts the incarnation and the resurrection (and you see similar thinking from other Biblical scholars). Our own psstein seems to take a similar stance from a purely textual perspective, though seems to accept it as a matter of faith.

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