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Thread: King Solomon and Deuteronomy 13

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paprika View Post
    No, and I don't see what you're driving at here.
    If King Solomon repented because he worshipped idols, then he would have been forgiven.

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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    If King Solomon repented because he worshipped idols, then he would have been forgiven.
    The promise isn't talking about the punishment of the individual person who worships idols. It's about Israel as a whole. Eventually, after Solomon's lifetime, Israel did fall.
    Something is always happening, but when it happens, people don't always see it, or understand it... or accept it.

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    tWebber Avraham Ibn Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    Deuteronomy 13

    2. If there will arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of a dream, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,

    3. and the sign or the wonder of which he spoke to you happens, [and he] says, "Let us go after other gods which you have not known, and let us worship them,"

    4. you shall not heed the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream; for the Lord, your God, is testing you, to know whether you really love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul.

    5. You shall follow the Lord, your God, fear Him, keep His commandments, heed His voice, worship Him, and cleave to Him.

    6. And that prophet, or that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death; because he spoke falsehood about the Lord, your God Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeemed you from the house of bondage, to lead you astray from the way in which the Lord, your God, commanded you to go; so shall you clear away the evil from your midst.

    7. If your brother, the son of your mother, tempts you in secret or your son, or your daughter, or the wife of your embrace, or your friend, who is as your own soul saying, "Let us go and worship other gods, which neither you, nor your forefathers have known."

    8. Of the gods of the peoples around you, [whether] near to you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth;

    9. You shall not desire him, and you shall not hearken to him; neither shall you pity him, have mercy upon him, nor shield him.

    10. But you shall surely kill him, your hand shall be the first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

    11. And you shall stone him with stones so that he dies, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, Who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

    King Solomon turned to idols. How did he escape being stoned?

    Thank you.
    There is a cultural taboo in Judaism against killing the anointed of HaShem. See King David's response to calls for him to kill King Saul, the anointed of G-d, in 1 Samuel 24. David refuses to kill King Saul and feels guilty for even cutting a piece of cloth off of Saul.

    If you look at the biblical narrative the anointed of G-d is typically killed by non Jews and if the anointed is killed by a Jew there is a stiff penalty exacted by G-d on that person.

    Shalom,

    Avraham Ibn Ezra
    Last edited by Avraham Ibn Ezra; 04-30-2014 at 04:31 PM.

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    tWebber mitzi's Avatar
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    Correct Solomon’s success continues until he marries many foreign women (so compare both Ezra 10 and 1 Kings 11:1, King Solomon, however, loved many foreign women besides Pharaoh's daughter--Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians and Hittites. Ezra 10:3 “Now let us make a covenant before our God to send away all these women and their children, in accordance with the counsel of my lord and of those who fear the commands of our God. Let it be done according to the Law”.).
    The foreign women had influenced Solomon to worship and erect altars to foreign deities (compare this with Genesis 3:6 - "and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate".). So, and I believe, that the sin committed was liken to the Garden of Eden, in a very similar way (see Ezra 3:21-26 (Apocalypse) “For the first Adam, burdened with an evil heart, transgressed and was overcome, as were also all who were descended from him. [22] Thus the disease became permanent; the law was in the people's heart along with the evil root, but what was good departed, and the evil remained. [23] So the times passed and the years were completed, and thou didst raise up for thyself a servant, named David. [24] And thou didst command him to build a city for thy name, and in it to offer thee oblations from what is thine. [25] This was done for many years; but the inhabitants of the city transgressed, [26] in everything doing as Adam and all his descendants had done, for they also had the evil heart.”)
    Also, in the same way as Adam and Eve, God was infuriated with Solomon and tells him that he will dismember the kingdom. God tore away all of the tribes from Solomon’s kingdom except for one, Judah. What's interesting is the tower of Babylon and the quote from the bible, “And they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city and a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make ourselves a name, lest we be scattered upon the face of the entire earth." - Again, see the book of Ezra on the top of scattering the people - the prayer.

    There's a part in the prayer that is very significant and it end with what Moses had said to the people – also there is a prayer for the King in Psalms much like the prayer in Ezra (see Psalms 20 - Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Bible):

    Ezra 7

    O Adam, what have you done? For though it was you who sinned, the fall was not yours alone, but ours also who are your descendants.
    [49(119)] For what good is it to us, if an eternal age has been promised to us, but we have done deeds that bring death?
    [50(120)] And what good is it that an everlasting hope has been promised to us, but we have miserably failed?
    [51(121)] Or that safe and healthful habitations have been reserved for us, but we have lived wickedly?
    [52(122)] Or that the glory of the Most High will defend those who have led a pure life, but we have walked in the most wicked ways?
    [53(123)] Or that a paradise shall be revealed, whose fruit remains unspoiled and in which are abundance and healing, but we shall not enter it,
    [54(124)] because we have lived in unseemly places?
    [55(125)] Or that the faces of those who practiced self-control shall shine more than the stars, but our faces shall be blacker than darkness?
    [56(126)] For while we lived and committed iniquity we did not consider what we should suffer after death."
    [57(127)] He answered and said, "This is the meaning of the contest which every man who is born on earth shall wage,
    [58(128)] that if he is defeated he shall suffer what you have said, but if he is victorious he shall receive what I have said.
    [59(129)] For this is the way of which Moses, while he was alive, spoke to the people, saying, `Choose for yourself life, that you may live!'


    With the commentary that was given by Matthew Henry - we should all remember what makes a great leader!

  5. #15
    tWebber mitzi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    If King Solomon repented because he worshipped idols, then he would have been forgiven.
    Christian 3 - this is really a very good subject to talk about.

    Read 1 Samuel

    6Then Samuel said to the people, “It is the Lord who appointed Moses and Aaron and brought your ancestors up out of Egypt. 7Now then, stand here, because I am going to confront you with evidence before the Lord as to all the righteous acts performed by the Lord for you and your ancestors.

    8“After Jacob entered Egypt, they cried to the Lord for help, and the Lord sent Moses and Aaron, who brought your ancestors out of Egypt and settled them in this place.

    9“But they forgot the Lord their God; so he sold them into the hand of Sisera, the commander of the army of Hazor, and into the hands of the Philistines and the king of Moab, who fought against them. 10They cried out to the Lord and said, ‘We have sinned; we have forsaken the Lord and served the Baals and the Ashtoreths. But now deliver us from the hands of our enemies, and we will serve you.’ 11Then the Lord sent Jerub-Baal,a Barak,b Jephthah and Samuel,c and he delivered you from the hands of your enemies all around you, so that you lived in safety.

    12“But when you saw that Nahash king of the Ammonites was moving against you, you said to me, ‘No, we want a king to rule over us’—even though the Lord your God was your king. 13Now here is the king you have chosen, the one you asked for; see, the Lord has set a king over you. 14If you fear the Lord and serve and obey him and do not rebel against his commands, and if both you and the king who reigns over you follow the Lord your God—good! 15But if you do not obey the Lord, and if you rebel against his commands, his hand will be against you, as it was against your ancestors.


    16“Now then, stand still and see this great thing the Lord is about to do before your eyes! 17Is it not wheat harvest now? I will call on the Lord to send thunder and rain. And you will realize what an evil thing you did in the eyes of the Lord when you asked for a king.”

    18Then Samuel called on the Lord, and that same day the Lord sent thunder and rain. So all the people stood in awe of the Lord and of Samuel.

    19The people all said to Samuel, “Pray to the Lord your God for your servants so that we will not die, for we have added to all our other sins the evil of asking for a king.”

    20“Do not be afraid,” Samuel replied. “You have done all this evil; yet do not turn away from the Lord, but serve the Lord with all your heart. 21Do not turn away after useless idols. They can do you no good, nor can they rescue you, because they are useless. 22For the sake of his great name the Lord will not reject his people, because the Lord was pleased to make you his own. 23As for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by failing to pray for you. And I will teach you the way that is good and right. 24But be sure to fear the Lord and serve him faithfully with all your heart; consider what great things he has done for you. 25Yet if you persist in doing evil, both you and your king will perish.”

    I think the key to what you're asking is in the last sentence. The conditions that Samuel is stressing on the people who had "asked for a King" is that both the people and the king will be punished if they don't follow the law (both go hand in hand, now back up to Ezra 7 - the paragraph emphasizes the samething, what happens to the people happens to the king)....... Also, I think that in Deuteronomy 8,10,13,17,29 or 32 ( Chapter 32 was stressed more) was the beginning with the divisions of the clans (see Exodus: After Moses had begun to lead the Israelites on their Exodus, it was Jethro that encouraged Moses to appoint others to share in the burden of ministry to the nation Israel by allowing others to help in the judgment of smaller matters coming before him. This takes place in the Torah portion Yitro (Exodus 18:1-20:23).) but then came Samuel choosing a king for the people - everything seemed to lead towards a nation and king. Mitzi
    Last edited by mitzi; 05-15-2014 at 07:49 PM. Reason: adding on additional scriptural points

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    tWebber
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    Hi Christian 3,


    There is another verse:


    14If you fear the Lord and serve and obey him and do not rebel against his commands, and if both you and the king who reigns over you follow the Lord your God—good! 15But if you do not obey the Lord, and if you rebel against his commands, his hand will be against you, as it was against your ancestors.

    16“Now then, stand still and see this great thing the Lord is about to do before your eyes! 17Is it not wheat harvest now? I will call on the Lord to send thunder and rain. And you will realize what an evil thing you did in the eyes of the Lord when you asked for a king.”

    18Then Samuel called on the Lord, and that same day the Lord sent thunder and rain. So all the people stood in awe of the Lord and of Samuel.

    19The people all said to Samuel, “Pray to the Lord your God for your servants so that we will not die, for we have added to all our other sins the evil of asking for a king.”

    20“Do not be afraid,” Samuel replied. You have done all this evil; yet do not turn away from the Lord, but serve the Lord with all your heart. 21Do not turn away after useless idols. They can do you no good, nor can they rescue you, because they are useless. 22For the sake of his great name the Lord will not reject his people, because the Lord was pleased to make you his own. 23As for me, far be it from me that I should sin against the Lord by failing to pray for you. And I will teach you the way that is good and right. 24But be sure to fear the Lord and serve him faithfully with all your heart; consider what great things he has done for you. 25Yet if you persist in doing evil, both you and your king will perish.”

  7. #17
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by KingsGambit View Post
    The promise isn't talking about the punishment of the individual person who worships idols. It's about Israel as a whole. Eventually, after Solomon's lifetime, Israel did fall.
    You're right, it is about Israel as a whole and the King. What Solomon did effected the outcome of Israel but then again and, vice versa -the golden calf. The people and the king were tied together as with Moses and Aaron. What effects one will have an affect on the other - isn't God's Presence removed -afterwards, the violation of the commandment forbidding 'other gods in My Presence'? I can't think of a worse punishment - Following the episode of the golden calf, the bible records the following: " 3 Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”" (Exodus 33:3).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian3 View Post
    If King Solomon repented because he worshiped idols, then he would have been forgiven.
    Question about your comment? Especially with idol worshiping and even the cult in the old testament. In scripture and after Moses ascended to the mountain for many days, the Israelites then made a golden calf to worship because they thought Moses wasn't going to return back. When God informs Moses about the Israelites and the golden calf, Moses pleads on their behalf to God. There are two scriptural points - that seem to point toward Genesis:

    line 4: "He took [them] from their hand[s], fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made it into a molten calf, upon which they said: "These are your gods, O Israel, who have brought you up from the land of Egypt!"

    line 8: "They have quickly turned away from the path that I have commanded them; they have made themselves a molten calf! And they have prostrated themselves before it, slaughtered sacrifices to it, and said: 'These are your gods, O Israel, who have brought you up from the land of Egypt.' "

    What makes this sin different from the offense in the garden of Eden when the serpent tempted Eve?

    4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”


    The 2nd question, repentance does have to take place (yes) but in order to bring someone to that point - what has to take place first? Can someone go from sinning and then repentance all in the same action?

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