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Cogito ergo sum

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Argument from Reason

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  • Argument from Reason

    Michael Peterson wrote about the views of C.S. Lewis on evolution and intelligent design. Here is the link to the article: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2010/PSCF12-10Peterson.pdf

    The following is a quote from Michael Peterson's article. He gives a summary of Lewis's argument from reason. What do you think of the argument?

    He also added some reasoning of his own, arguing in Miracles that, in order for human thought to be rational, it must be free: we must be able to
    form beliefs by a logical process that is not completely determined by physical processes in the brain. However, a naturalistic worldview, observes Lewis, assumes that matter and its operations are the foundation of all phenomena, including what we call rational thought. It is at this very point that he says Naturalism is self-defeating: it undercuts rational thought by subsuming it under physical causation and therefore removes any basis for regarding human thought as rational, and for regarding the naturalist’s belief in Naturalism as rational. Lewis further argues that finite rationality is best explained by something outside of nature which must be more like a Mind than anything else. This is Lewis’s “argument from reason”—not technically a design-type argument but a closely related consideration pertaining to a Transcendent Intelligence.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Hornet View Post
    Michael Peterson wrote about the views of C.S. Lewis on evolution and intelligent design. Here is the link to the article: http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2010/PSCF12-10Peterson.pdf

    The following is a quote from Michael Peterson's article. He gives a summary of Lewis's argument from reason. What do you think of the argument?
    I think that whether a thought is rational or irrational is not necessarily dependent upon the nature of the thinker. Rational ideas, logic, can just as easily come from a determined process than from a free process. That the thinker is determined, which Lewis here seems to take to mean the naturalistic or materialistic worldview, doesn't necessarily make it's output irrational, or that the thinker is free, which Lewis here seems to mean non-material, doesn't necessarily make its ouput rational.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Hornet View Post
      . . .
      . . . in order for human thought to be rational, it must be free: we must be able to
      form beliefs by a logical process that is not completely determined by physical processes in the brain.
      Well, I am not understanding that argument, how it is logically deduced. Our brains being subject to its physical processes. As it is, we do not, apart from belief in a revelation, do not have a logical basis for the distinction between our selves(soul) and our brain. Materialists presumably make no such distinction.
      . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

      . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

      Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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      • #4
        Originally posted by 37818 View Post
        Well, I am not understanding that argument, how it is logically deduced. Our brains being subject to its physical processes. As it is, we do not, apart from belief in a revelation, do not have a logical basis for the distinction between our selves(soul) and our brain. Materialists presumably make no such distinction.
        That is not the point, which is that rational thought is not possible with determinism. In other words, you don't have the freedom to choose between differing ideas or concepts. If you are determined to believe that A is true, you will believe that A is true whether it is or not. It may be true, but that is not why you believe it to be so.
        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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        • #5
          Originally posted by seer View Post
          That is not the point, which is that rational thought is not possible with determinism. In other words, you don't have the freedom to choose between differing ideas or concepts. If you are determined to believe that A is true, you will believe that A is true whether it is or not. It may be true, but that is not why you believe it to be so.
          Being able to sort true from false is a matter of survival. But we are able to compartmentalise topics, such as religion, wherein the truth of an issue is relatively unimportant.
          “I think God, in creating man, somewhat overestimated his ability.” ― Oscar Wilde
          “And if there were a God, I think it very unlikely that He would have such an uneasy vanity as to be offended by those who doubt His existence” ― Bertrand Russell
          “not all there” - you know who you are

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          • #6
            Originally posted by seer View Post
            That is not the point, which is that rational thought is not possible with determinism. In other words, you don't have the freedom to choose between differing ideas or concepts. If you are determined to believe that A is true, you will believe that A is true whether it is or not. It may be true, but that is not why you believe it to be so.
            Libertarian free-will, as so often posited by you as a matter of faith, is logically incoherent. We have 'will', i.e. a desire or impulse to act, but mere “will” cannot be described as 'free will' because it directs nothing. It is shaped and formed by unconscious processes from inputs and memory function into thought and action. It depends upon how we were socialised and acculturated by the community in which we were raised as to whether we choose to do good things or bad things.
            “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JimL View Post
              I think that whether a thought is rational or irrational is not necessarily dependent upon the nature of the thinker. Rational ideas, logic, can just as easily come from a determined process than from a free process. That the thinker is determined, which Lewis here seems to take to mean the naturalistic or materialistic worldview, doesn't necessarily make it's output irrational, or that the thinker is free, which Lewis here seems to mean non-material, doesn't necessarily make its ouput rational.
              Let's say that ultimate reality is impersonal and that a thinker is determined by impersonal forces. If the conclusions he comes to are rational, would that be a matter of luck? If he actually is a rational personal, is it by luck or chance that he became rational? Impersonal forces are not necessarily directed toward truth and rationality.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                Libertarian free-will, as so often posited by you as a matter of faith, is logically incoherent. We have 'will', i.e. a desire or impulse to act, but mere “will” cannot be described as 'free will' because it directs nothing. It is shaped and formed by unconscious processes from inputs and memory function into thought and action. It depends upon how we were socialised and acculturated by the community in which we were raised as to whether we choose to do good things or bad things.
                So all your thoughts are predetermined, and you have no choice in what you believe to be true or correct or not... Just as you had no choice in writing the above, whether it is true or not.
                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by seer View Post
                  So all your thoughts are predetermined, and you have no choice in what you believe to be true or correct or not... Just as you had no choice in writing the above, whether it is true or not.
                  And around we go again. I refer you to our previous discussions re combatabilism.

                  What you cannot answer is how you make libertarian free-will decisions, when your decisions and choices have been shaped and formed by antecedent unconscious processes from inputs and memory function. Or do you deny that your subconscious memories and socialisation dominate your decision-making processes?
                  “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Tassman View Post
                    And around we go again. I refer you to our previous discussions re combatabilism.

                    What you cannot answer is how you make libertarian free-will decisions, when your decisions and choices have been shaped and formed by antecedent unconscious processes from inputs and memory function. Or do you deny that your subconscious memories and socialisation dominate your decision-making processes?
                    Tass, we are speaking about reason here - that topic excludes you....
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Hornet View Post
                      He gives a summary of Lewis's argument from reason. What do you think of the argument?
                      It's echoed in Platinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism.

                      By observation, it's clear that humans do not typically engage in rational thought. Flat earthism, YEC, astrology, and unseen divine actors riddle the thinking of humans who have not been carefully taught to engage in critical reasoning.

                      Naturalism predicts this.

                      Call it the Evidentiary Argument For Naturalism.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                        It's echoed in Platinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism.

                        By observation, it's clear that humans do not typically engage in rational thought. Flat earthism, YEC, astrology, and unseen divine actors riddle the thinking of humans who have not been carefully taught to engage in critical reasoning.

                        Naturalism predicts this.

                        Call it the Evidentiary Argument For Naturalism.
                        What do you mean by "unseen divine actors?"
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                          It's echoed in Platinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism.

                          By observation, it's clear that humans do not typically engage in rational thought. Flat earthism, YEC, astrology, and unseen divine actors riddle the thinking of humans who have not been carefully taught to engage in critical reasoning.

                          Naturalism predicts this.

                          Call it the Evidentiary Argument For Naturalism.
                          Why would naturalism predict that?
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                            What do you mean by "unseen divine actors?"
                            Everything from wood nymphs to gods, well, assuming you've never seen a wood nymph.

                            Originally posted by seer View Post
                            Why would naturalism predict that?
                            Because evolution guarantees nothing more than just enough to survive, we expect less than optimum results. My perfect hair is the exception that proves the rule.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                              Because evolution guarantees nothing more than just enough to survive, we expect less than optimum results. My perfect hair is the exception that proves the rule.
                              It seems to me that you are reading backwards into it. Who knows if conditions were just right that the process couldn't produce a supremely rational race - like Vulcans...
                              Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                              Comment

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