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Thread: Argument from Reason

  1. #11
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hornet View Post
    He gives a summary of Lewis's argument from reason. What do you think of the argument?
    It's echoed in Platinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism.

    By observation, it's clear that humans do not typically engage in rational thought. Flat earthism, YEC, astrology, and unseen divine actors riddle the thinking of humans who have not been carefully taught to engage in critical reasoning.

    Naturalism predicts this.

    Call it the Evidentiary Argument For Naturalism.

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    Professor Zymologist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lao tzu View Post
    It's echoed in Platinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism.

    By observation, it's clear that humans do not typically engage in rational thought. Flat earthism, YEC, astrology, and unseen divine actors riddle the thinking of humans who have not been carefully taught to engage in critical reasoning.

    Naturalism predicts this.

    Call it the Evidentiary Argument For Naturalism.
    What do you mean by "unseen divine actors?"
    Hofstadter's Law: It will always take longer than you expect, even if you take into account Hofstadter's Law.

    "Metal is an apple--everything's good but the core."

  3. #13
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lao tzu View Post
    It's echoed in Platinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism.

    By observation, it's clear that humans do not typically engage in rational thought. Flat earthism, YEC, astrology, and unseen divine actors riddle the thinking of humans who have not been carefully taught to engage in critical reasoning.

    Naturalism predicts this.

    Call it the Evidentiary Argument For Naturalism.
    Why would naturalism predict that?
    God moves in a mysterious way His wonders to perform; He plants his footsteps in the sea, And rides upon the storm. You fearful saints fresh courage take, The clouds you so much dread are great with mercy, and shall break In blessings on your head. Judge not the Lord by your feeble sense, But trust him for his grace; Behind a frowning providence He hides a smiling face. William Cowper

  4. #14
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zymologist View Post
    What do you mean by "unseen divine actors?"
    Everything from wood nymphs to gods, well, assuming you've never seen a wood nymph.

    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Why would naturalism predict that?
    Because evolution guarantees nothing more than just enough to survive, we expect less than optimum results. My perfect hair is the exception that proves the rule.

  5. #15
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lao tzu View Post
    Because evolution guarantees nothing more than just enough to survive, we expect less than optimum results. My perfect hair is the exception that proves the rule.
    It seems to me that you are reading backwards into it. Who knows if conditions were just right that the process couldn't produce a supremely rational race - like Vulcans...
    God moves in a mysterious way His wonders to perform; He plants his footsteps in the sea, And rides upon the storm. You fearful saints fresh courage take, The clouds you so much dread are great with mercy, and shall break In blessings on your head. Judge not the Lord by your feeble sense, But trust him for his grace; Behind a frowning providence He hides a smiling face. William Cowper

  6. #16
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lao tzu View Post
    Everything from wood nymphs to gods, well, assuming you've never seen a wood nymph.

    Because evolution guarantees nothing more than just enough to survive, we expect less than optimum results. My perfect hair is the exception that proves the rule.
    This appears to me to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the evolutionary process. Evolution provides a mechanism for optimizing those characteristics that will provide a species with a survival advantage in a particular evolutionary niche. It is not "just survive." It is "does this help me survive MORE than the other members in the niche."

    Ergo - if greater height gives a member of the species an advantage, beings with greater height will survive at a greater rate, passing on the adaptation to their progeny at a higher rate. If the ability to use tools gives a being an advantage in their niche, nature will select for it. If reason provides a greater survival advantage, nature will select for it.

    So when someone says, "we don't need eyesight to survive - many animals survive without eyesight," they are misunderstanding how evolution works. The question is, will eyesight help me survive at a greater rate than my competitors in this niche. If the answer is yes, evolution will select for it. Likewise, when someone says, "many animals get by without consciousness, so consciousness is not an aid to survival," they are misunderstanding how evolution works. The question is, does consciousness help me survive at a greater rate than my competitors in this niche. If the answer is yes, nature will select for it.

    It's kind of like the old joke about the two men who come upon a bear near the edge of a field. As the bear charges, one man immediate turns and bolts into the open field. The other man screams, "Are you crazy? You can't outrun a bear!" The first man screams back, "I don't have to outrun the bear. I just have to outrun YOU!"
    Last edited by carpedm9587; 02-15-2018 at 06:19 PM.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber The Remonstrant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    So all your thoughts are predetermined, and you have no choice in what you believe to be true or correct or not... Just as you had no choice in writing the above, whether it is true or not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tassman View Post
    And around we go again. I refer you to our previous discussions re combatabilism.

    What you cannot answer is how you make libertarian free-will decisions, when your decisions and choices have been shaped and formed by antecedent unconscious processes from inputs and memory function. Or do you deny that your subconscious memories and socialisation dominate your decision-making processes?
    Quote Originally Posted by seer View Post
    Tass, we are speaking about reason here - that topic excludes you....
    A cheap shot.
    [I]f what you have heard from the beginning remains in you, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. The one who has the Son has the life; the one who does not have the Son of God does not have the life. (1 Jn 2.24; 5.12, LEB)

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  8. Amen shunyadragon amen'd this post.
  9. #18
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Remonstrant View Post
    A cheap shot.
    Yes, yes it was...
    God moves in a mysterious way His wonders to perform; He plants his footsteps in the sea, And rides upon the storm. You fearful saints fresh courage take, The clouds you so much dread are great with mercy, and shall break In blessings on your head. Judge not the Lord by your feeble sense, But trust him for his grace; Behind a frowning providence He hides a smiling face. William Cowper

  10. #19
    radical strawberry
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    This appears to me to be a fundamental misunderstanding of the evolutionary process. Evolution provides a mechanism for optimizing those characteristics that will provide a species with a survival advantage in a particular evolutionary niche.
    There are no optimal organisms. There are no optimal traits.

  11. #20
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lao tzu View Post
    There are no optimal organisms. There are no optimal traits.
    I did not say "optimal." I said "optimize." Within a particular evolutionary niche, evolution optimizes those traits that provide for a greater chance of survival in that niche. Change the niche, and those traits may no longer provide a survival value, so they will no longer be selected for.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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