about Eden

[A Beautiful Truth]

The reason why Hebrews are said to do the borrowing is that traditionally the Bible or OT stories are dated to an Iron Age period (800-1100BCE) whereas other myths or stories date hundreds or a thousand years earlier.

Is it not an appeal to ignorance to assume that because one myth was written before another that it actually came first? Did not the Hebrews have an excellent oral tradition?

The period of the first draft has the Great Famine as its core background. This event caused many myths to arise also in Egypt at the same time as in Jerusalem. The myths are different but certain historical events show through.

This is interesting, please explain.

[mikeledo]

Is it not an appeal to ignorance to assume that because one myth was written before another that it actually came first? Did not the Hebrews have an excellent oral tradition?



This is interesting, please explain.

The OT stories were considered written at the same time (first 5 books anyway). Among those tales is the conquest of various cities, including Heshbon by Moses. This city didn't exist until the Iron Age making the oral tradition argument void of an earlier time period. There are also other Iron Age cities which crop up.

The Great Famine lasted for about 150 years. This famine drove Joseph and his family into Egypt as it did many foreigners. Eventually the Nile would turn to "blood" and the famine would strike Egypt with anarchy and chaos. The pharaoh of Egypt was Pepi II. He ruled from age 6 to age 100. This was also the first pharaoh of Moses (ignore that 400 year add on). The Midrash also claims this pharaoh ruled from age 6 to 100. This is the ONLY pharaoh in all of Egypt that did this-by no coincidence.

The famine also accounted for the story of Hathor's attempt to destroy the world and Kore's attempt also. It created myths. Hathor wanted to destroy mankind. Osirus found out about the plan and turned the river into red beer laced with mandrake. Hathor drank and became drunk. She failed to destroy mankind. This time period caused many to doubt their faith. It was an "eat drink and ne merry- for tomorrow we die society."

The famine came at or caused EB III. This was a period of unique lamps throughout the Middle East. Because the olive trees had died, a different style lamp was used to burn other oils. This lamp was used from 2300 BCE all over the region and suddenly its use was stopped about 2000 BCE. This makes this key period easy to date archaelogically. The walls of Jericho fell during this period also. The pottery matched the C-14 dating.

Because of the famine Egypt fell as an empire into anarchy and Babylon rose to power. This just happened to be about the same period of the new world age of Aries. Babylon, Assyria, and the Amorites all were reprented by the Aries, while Egypt was represented by Taurus- the old World Age.

There was a movement or desire to stay with Egypt, but timed moved on. In the Egyptian astrology this was represented by the leg of the bull chained to the pole star. In the Bible it was the worship of the golden calf and desire of the people to return to Egypt. Moses pressed on into Aries- we must worship the lamb (Aries) of God.

[Socratism]

The reason why Hebrews are said to do the borrowing is that traditionally the Bible or OT stories are dated to an Iron Age period (800-1100BCE) whereas other myths or stories date hundreds or a thousand years earlier. We assume the Flintstones borrowed their story line from the Honeymooners and not the other way around because the Honeymooners existed first.

"Tradition" is important, but not always precise.

In my latest work I contend the basic book for the OT was written circa 2218 BCE. It compares favorably to the Babylonian texts of that era- most are given a circa 2400 BCE date. What this would mean is that the later Ugarit texts and Greek myths would have borrowed FROM the Bible. However modern scholarship is not yet on board with my work as it is not even published.

Have you considered the possibility that Genesis was written by eyewitnesses to the events described, and that Moses only compiled a number of these accounts into the document known today as Genesis?

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

This would make much of Genesis to be written prior to the Babylonian texts and would explain why the latter are more mythological than is Genesis.

[mikeledo]

"Tradition" is important, but not always precise.


Have you considered the possibility that Genesis was written by eyewitnesses to the events described, and that Moses only compiled a number of these accounts into the document known today as Genesis?

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

This would make much of Genesis to be written prior to the Babylonian texts and would explain why the latter are more mythological than is Genesis.

Parts of the original text (the end part) would have been written by eye-witness accounts. In fact there may be some real history in the David/Solomon stories. The original text spans several generations with a history that could be 500 to 1000 years long. Moses or his real life counterpart- King Sargon I, would have been dead.

Moses is a composite character based partly on Sargon who like Moses floated down a river in a basket as a baby and conquered the Amorites. While there was a conquest and some population migrations, the story of the Exodus, parting of the seas etc. would be something that would have been considered a history of the heavens and not the earth. It is based primarily on the constellation of Eridanus which starts as the Nile and turns into the Red Sea after the Paw of Cetus or hand of God which pushed back the armies of the pharoah. Cetus is the great waste land Moses entered. The 40 year number was later added. 40 years designates a constellation cycle. It is an astrologers note. The star Miri represented Mt. Sinai- a real live earth place. Miri is an oscillating star and appears at only certain times. This is why God was on Sinai only at certain times.

The real composer would have lived circa 2218 BCE. I suggest it was a Canaanite priest in Jerusalem who was knowledgeable of Babylonian history, myth, astrology, and current events.

There are real events- there was a flood (local), Sodom and Gommorrah did exist. Dilmun was Eden. There was a great famine. Babylonians migrated to Judea as did Abraham. Egypt was plagued (as was the most of the world). Many of the cities named in the conquests of Moses and Joshua fell. Abimelek and Jothom are based on real people.

I would contend many details in the stories are fictional and reflect astrology or history of the heavens as the Bible terms it.

[A Beautiful Truth]

The OT stories were considered written at the same time (first 5 books anyway).

But written does not mean that the stories were "made" then, surely we have oral tradition that would be the basis of some of the stories.

Among those tales is the conquest of various cities, including Heshbon by Moses. This city didn't exist until the Iron Age making the oral tradition argument void of an earlier time period.

Well, when I speak of oral tradition, I am referring to the stories of earlier times in Genesis. Why could Moses not have used both oral tradition and what he witnessed at the time? It does not have to be either/or, does it?

The Great Famine lasted for about 150 years. This famine drove Joseph and his family into Egypt as it did many foreigners. Eventually the Nile would turn to "blood" and the famine would strike Egypt with anarchy and chaos. The pharaoh of Egypt was Pepi II. He ruled from age 6 to age 100. This was also the first pharaoh of Moses (ignore that 400 year add on). The Midrash also claims this pharaoh ruled from age 6 to 100. This is the ONLY pharaoh in all of Egypt that did this-by no coincidence.

So you are saying that two sources say Pepi II was the Pharoah during the time. I have not studied this much, what important thing do we understand from this knowledge concerning the Bible?

The famine came at or caused EB III. This was a period of unique lamps throughout the Middle East. Because the olive trees had died, a different style lamp was used to burn other oils. This lamp was used from 2300 BCE all over the region and suddenly its use was stopped about 2000 BCE. This makes this key period easy to date archaelogically. The walls of Jericho fell during this period also. The pottery matched the C-14 dating.

Neat...what does it mean?

Because of the famine Egypt fell as an empire into anarchy and Babylon rose to power. This just happened to be about the same period of the new world age of Aries. Babylon, Assyria, and the Amorites all were reprented by the Aries, while Egypt was represented by Taurus- the old World Age.

There was a movement or desire to stay with Egypt, but timed moved on. In the Egyptian astrology this was represented by the leg of the bull chained to the pole star. In the Bible it was the worship of the golden calf and desire of the people to return to Egypt. Moses pressed on into Aries- we must worship the lamb (Aries) of God.

I admit that I am new to the archeology forum, and had not read your posts before. So you are saying that much of the first five books of the Bible are really borrowed myths based on astrology? Well, that is interesting, are you the developer of this hypothesis? You have written books? What do your peers say?

[Socratism]

Parts of the original text (the end part) would have been written by eye-witness accounts. In fact there may be some real history in the David/Solomon stories. The original text spans several generations with a history that could be 500 to 1000 years long. Moses or his real life counterpart- King Sargon I, would have been dead.

Moses is a composite character based partly on Sargon who like Moses floated down a river in a basket as a baby and conquered the Amorites. While there was a conquest and some population migrations, the story of the Exodus, parting of the seas etc. would be something that would have been considered a history of the heavens and not the earth. It is based primarily on the constellation of Eridanus which starts as the Nile and turns into the Red Sea after the Paw of Cetus or hand of God which pushed back the armies of the pharoah. Cetus is the great waste land Moses entered. The 40 year number was later added. 40 years designates a constellation cycle. It is an astrologers note. The star Miri represented Mt. Sinai- a real live earth place. Miri is an oscillating star and appears at only certain times. This is why God was on Sinai only at certain times.

The real composer would have lived circa 2218 BCE. I suggest it was a Canaanite priest in Jerusalem who was knowledgeable of Babylonian history, myth, astrology, and current events.

There are real events- there was a flood (local), Sodom and Gommorrah did exist. Dilmun was Eden. There was a great famine. Babylonians migrated to Judea as did Abraham. Egypt was plagued (as was the most of the world). Many of the cities named in the conquests of Moses and Joshua fell. Abimelek and Jothom are based on real people.

I would contend many details in the stories are fictional and reflect astrology or history of the heavens as the Bible terms it.

You are welcome to your own hypotheses, but you never answered my question regarding Moses as a compiler instead of the author of the Genesis historical narratives.

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

[mikeledo]

[QUOTE=



I admit that I am new to the archeology forum, and had not read your posts before. So you are saying that much of the first five books of the Bible are really borrowed myths based on astrology? Well, that is interesting, are you the developer of this hypothesis? You have written books? What do your peers say?[/QUOTE]
I have written a detailed book on the matter still unpublished. I compare the ancient or Arabic name of the stars and their stories surrounding the constellations and compare it to the meaning of place names and people in the OT in the original Hebrew. What I got was a pattern which flowed from one star to the next, and from one constellation to the next without any unjustified leaps or jumps.

Seacoast areas were zodiac constellations. Hills were in the heads of zodiac constellation or in second tier constellations. Mountains and towers were at the top of the constellations.

Three people so far have read by entire book- admittedly they were all athesits- but held tradition views of Biblical authorship. They are now in my camp due to the "overwhelming" amount of information I present.

I also show how stories were added- an editorial technique not yet discovered. I shoe explain why they were added- many stories were added after the change in the World Age from Taurus to Aries. This changed the cardinal points. The additions fit the pattern.

Likewise Midrashes written circa 200 BCE to 200 AD demonstrate the Rabbis still had specific knowledge concerning the meaning of the texts. Their explanations which on occasion mimic Greek Myths coincide with the Greek story of the constellation.

Egypt has a similar pattern and usage of the constellations- although theirs is more complex because if is older and encompasses yet another World Age. They craeted new gods to take the place of the old gods, but kept the old gods and their traditions.

The book of Matthew follows an astrological pattern. It also includes an inn in the birth narrative- which was a Roman influence.

Virgin births are astrological- which is why so many cultures had stories about them. There are also some OT texts whose meaning is unknown or questionable and are mistranslated because of it so that it makes sense. These texts in the original Hebrew with a simple translation make sense when compared to astrology/astronomy.

Everything ties in so neatly. All the archaelogical anomolies that exist in Biblical chronology go away. There are several Chrsitian groups that endorse the idea that the Bible is written in the stars. I have used the work of E.X. Bullinger "Witness to the Stars" because he was the first one to do a serious study, although I have found his work slightly flawed.

[mikeledo]

You are welcome to your own hypotheses, but you never answered my question regarding Moses as a compiler instead of the author of the Genesis historical narratives.

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

When I claim Moses was a composite character- I mean to say there was no Moses in the sense that you mean.

[A Beautiful Truth]

Mikeledo,

What do you say of the Bible Code? Sometimes when you look for patterns you end up finding them. How would you compare the mentality of your work to the mentality of those who believe there is a Bible Code?

Also, you have submitted your work to liberal Bible historians, have you thought of submitting it to conservatives as well who might actually give you a serious critique? I'm sure those guys at Biola University would help you.

~Charleen

[mikeledo]

Mikeledo,

What do you say of the Bible Code? Sometimes when you look for patterns you end up finding them. How would you compare the mentality of your work to the mentality of those who believe there is a Bible Code?

Also, you have submitted your work to liberal Bible historians, have you thought of submitting it to conservatives as well who might actually give you a serious critique? I'm sure those guys at Biola University would help you.

~Charleen

Bible Code- there are encoded in the Bible certain words which we can tell by statistical data. For instance (I forget the real numbers and do not have them at hand) there are predicted 18 "Joshuas" in a certain book that would occur naturally. However lets say the book contains 27 Joshuas a number that way exceeds the the probability. This would indicate the additions were done on purpose. This type of knowledge is not new. The Bible Code used to "predict" the future is coincedental at best. As of yet no one has been able to predict future events using the code- it has all been 20-20 hindsight and within the statitiscal probability. My work is supported by Hebrew writings and their temples which had zodiac mosaics on the floors.

I have attempted to contact via e-mail several top named individuals about this theory hoping to get a PhD to tell me where I am wrong or give approval. Richard Elliot Friedman never responsed nor did several others. I have tried many publishers and agents to no avail. No matter how you tell the basic outline of the thesis whenever you say astrology and the Bible in the same text people respond to you like Lazlo Toth.

There are people who combine astrology and the Bible, however their ideas are kooky, however they are positive about my work (from the few I have had contact with) because it supports many of their ideas.

I have almost a Kabblah belief about how the Bible was written and constructed without the faith to go with it.

Currently my old publisher has consented to print the book in their own good time. I am not too excited about sharing my work until the book is out and copyrighted.

This was not a pettern I was searching for when I started to write my book. I thought some stories of the Bible had an astrologiocal meaning behind them, but that meaning was only secondary.What I never expected was to find was that the Bible was written as a "story book" of the constellations combining real history with the stars. I never wanted to place the writing in the Early Bronze Age. This gave me problems when I made the discovery. I had a bevy of anachronisms that I had to deal with. Since I am NOT an apologists I relied on what archaelogy claims about dating and the prevailing history. Knowing what I had to cut out allowed me to discover an editing pattern used to insert material. The original text starts with Gen. 2:4 with Adam as Leo and ends with the crowning of Solomon in the Southern Crown. What scholars call the "Book of J" I found out was way improperly edited.

Once I had the time set according to the astrological cardinal points- I looked at the history of that era and found that the story was a parallel of Babylonian myth and history. Everything neatly came together- so neat in fact it scared me.

It was weird doing the research once I realized what I had. I felt as if the ancient writer of the text wanted to finally be discovered and was leading me in certain directions-like a Vulcan mind meld. I personally don't assign anything supernatural to the feeling-while others might.

[A Beautiful Truth]

I have almost a Kabblah belief about how the Bible was written and constructed without the faith to go with it.

Have you submitted your work to rabbis?

What I never expected was to find was that the Bible was written as a "story book" of the constellations combining real history with the stars.

So you are saying there is real history but it was not arranged on a historical basis, but with the constellations? But this would be amazing consistency for all the authors, would it not?

What scholars call the "Book of J" I found out was way improperly edited.

As you know, mikeledo, peer review is so important. I encourage you to press on and get review, including review by conservative scholars.

Once I had the time set according to the astrological cardinal points- I looked at the history of that era and found that the story was a parallel of Babylonian myth and history. Everything neatly came together- so neat in fact it scared me.

And how much rearranging of the improperly edited material did you have to fix?

It was weird doing the research once I realized what I had. I felt as if the ancient writer of the text wanted to finally be discovered and was leading me in certain directions-like a Vulcan mind meld. I personally don't assign anything supernatural to the feeling-while others might.

Very interesting, mikeledo. I encourage you to put it up to the test as any scientific theory should be. You have obviously spent a lot of time on this, it is important that you follow through and go only where objectivity leads.

[mikeledo]

QUOTE=A Beautiful Truth]Have you submitted your work to rabbis?


No. I would like to discuss it with a liberal Hebrew scholar.



So you are saying there is real history but it was not arranged on a historical basis, but with the constellations? But this would be amazing consistency for all the authors, would it not?

It would indeed. There are of course Bible texts that have nothing to do with astrology such as the laws and later texts of Kings, Chronicals etc. However the main text had additions made to it which were meant to be astrological. There is a consistancy in their work, but not an absolute one as one might expect. There seems to have been a disagreement of a constellation cycle. One constellation equals about 40 years of time- however a complete cycle varies between 400, 480 and 560 years. There is common ground, but not absolute agreement. What makes it interesting is that the texts were considered to be an authority so rather than eliminate something that was inappropiate for the current age, they made additions. For instance in the original text David was not punished for his sacrifice of Uriah. Abraham did not attempt to save Sodom etc. In the same token negative stories were added such as Lot sleeping with his daughters and Abraham pimping his wife to the pharaoh.



As you know, mikeledo, peer review is so important. I encourage you to press on and get review, including review by conservative scholars.

I am looking for scholars to review my work. I pretty much know what the conservative scholar will say- their mind is made up.



And how much rearranging of the improperly edited material did you have to fix?

A bunch. The name Eve had to be deleted. The loading of the animals, the world wide flood and landing on Ararat- gone. Tower of Babylon and Nimrod- gone. Abraham's episode in Sodom, Egypt, Ishmael etc. -gone. A lot of Judges had to go which would be no surprise. Doublet stories in Joshua were eliminated. Much of the interaction between saul and David was wiped out including Saul's family. David had one wife and one child. I also had to add to the book of J many priestly lines, a few R lines and even some E lines although they do not contain "elohim."

The hardest part was the elimination of certain cities. I had to research each city to see if it had existed circa 2200 BCE. On city dates to 2000 BCE. It is a toss up. The "Philistines" had to stay even though they didn't exist in this period. I researched the Hebrew word for "Philistine" and realized it represented a place (Palestine) rather than a people. It just so happens the Phoenecians lived in the same location, worshipped Dagon and had a controlling influence over Jerusalem. It fit in perfectly.



Very interesting, mikeledo. I encourage you to put it up to the test as any scientific theory should be. You have obviously spent a lot of time on this, it is important that you follow through and go only where objectivity leads.[/QUOTE]
Thank you. I follow the truth no matter where it leads.

[A Beautiful Truth]

I see. I admit I am concerned at how much needed to be discarded in order to make it work. And what was the basis for throwing so much out? What was the standard by which you judged which should stay, which should go?

BTW--its the mountain(s) of Ararat, not Ararat. And I don't think the Bible teaches a global flood at all. Look at the terminology used for the famine in Joseph's time and compare it to the flood. I simply don't think it means the globe, but rather Noah's world.

Also, there was discussion going on in Natural Sciences about Babel, what do you say of Babel? I've heard peole say it had to do with polytheism vs. monotheism but I was wondering if it was not just the division of the Semetic languages or something--what do you think?

~Charleen

[mikeledo]

I see. I admit I am concerned at how much needed to be discarded in order to make it work. And what was the basis for throwing so much out? What was the standard by which you judged which should stay, which should go?

BTW--its the mountain(s) of Ararat, not Ararat. And I don't think the Bible teaches a global flood at all. Look at the terminology used for the famine in Joseph's time and compare it to the flood. I simply don't think it means the globe, but rather Noah's world.

Also, there was discussion going on in Natural Sciences about Babel, what do you say of Babel? I've heard peole say it had to do with polytheism vs. monotheism but I was wondering if it was not just the division of the Semetic languages or something--what do you think?

~Charleen

I believe I have posted about Babel somewhere else on this forum- something about Earth divided. Yes I am aware of the Mountains of Ararat translation- I was just keeping it simple. The tower of Babel was a later insertion into the original text. People were already divided according to their tongues in the previous chapter. Astrologically the Tower would represent either Ursa Major or Ursa Minor. I can make a good case for both. It is based upon a Babylonian legend.

After the Babylonian deluge, Hasisadra built an altar on the peak of a mountain. After the flood, Babylon turned to sin. There was a revolt against the great god Anu, “king of the holy mound.” The rebels built a stronghold, but were confounded in their work. What they constructed by day was undone at night. The supreme god gave a command to make strange their speech. The basic idea was that the Tower of Babylon represented the shift in the polar star. This is supported by the Hindu legend which claims a Tree of Knowledge, located in the center of the earth grew tall to the heavens. The tree was proud that its branches protected all the people and gathered them all together. Brahma decided to punish the tree’s pride by cutting off the branches and dispersing mankind all over the surface of the earth.

There is an old Egyptian legend which claims when Shu-Anhur lifted up the paradise or park of Am-Khemen he was compelled to make use of a mound or staircase with steps in order to reach the height. According to Maspero, the mound was famous throughout Egypt. This event supposedly took place at Hermopolis, where Thoth, a moon god was lord. A figure of the mound is pictured in the Ritual illustrates it as a pyramid with seven steps known as the ladder or staircase of Shu. Shu is pictured as a man standing with arms raised, usually holding his daughter Nut and standing over his son Geb. Shu, along with his sister Tefnut, were the first deities to be created by Atum. He is the lord of cool air and the upper sky. He was believed to be the one responsible, like Atlas, for holding up the firmament and separating it from the earth. Like the Tower of Babel, the Egyptians related the story to an actual location.

According to a Hebrew Midrash the Tower had seven staircases on the eastern side to ascend and seven on the western side to descend. (Perhaps they were using both constellations for the Tower- that would explain a lot.) From the top of the Tower, Nimrod’s men would shoot arrows in the heavens. The angels would catch them; put some blood on them for deception and toss the arrows back. The archers thought they had killed all of heaven’s inhabitants. This last part would seem to indicate they were on Ursa Major shooting at the angels on Ursa Minor.
I honestly don't think it had anything to do with languages or religion. And in looking at the Midrash it appears neither did the Jews.

[shunyadragon]

"Tradition" is important, but not always precise.


Have you considered the possibility that Genesis was written by eyewitnesses to the events described, and that Moses only compiled a number of these accounts into the document known today as Genesis?

http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

This would make much of Genesis to be written prior to the Babylonian texts and would explain why the latter are more mythological than is Genesis.

Unfortunately there is no evidence for the Biblical texts before ~250 BCE, yet there is abundent evidence for much older Babylonian texts.