about Eden

[Lion]

quote Kofh2u
I believe the story very much.

It is not a literal story, though.

It is a magic story, in the sense of literature that can carry itself forward into future generations. An epic. More, it has proven to capture the audience of other cultures.

I do not criticize those who are able to accept the irrationality of an impossible metaphysical literalism. These are people who were faithful in earlier times, when spirit worlds and ghosts, king arthur, and such tales were appropriate to our knowledge and mental capacities. They maintained faith in the Lord and their interpretation was effective for transmission of the Word into our own times.

Do not confuse Faith in men's interpretation of the bible with faith in Christ.

To follow the rational meaning of Torah is not to adopt an ancient position and insist on silence thereafter.
That is not Empiricism.
------------------------
I had to look up the definition of that word. What I found surprised me.
Dictionary definition
Empirical A sect of ancient Greek physicians who followed emprical methods; anyone who follows an empirical method, a quack, a charlatan. Pertaining to or derived from, or guided by experience or observation alone; without regard to regard to science or theory esp in medical practice: hence, unscientific; charlatinic. empiricism Empirical method or practice, esp undue reliance upon experience; quackery, in philosphy, the doctrine that all knowledge is derived from experience.
-----------------
quote
The Scientific Method of Empiricism says that a comprehensive Hypothesis should guide our thinking, rather than the rigid dogma of ancient waves of traditional metaphysical religious interpretations that organized priesthoods use to sway society. Galilleo?
-----------------------


You evidently class the Genesis story of creation and the flood as being a myth. How can you say you believe it when you obvously class it in the same category as king Arthur and dragons and other mythical tales, and say it is an irrationality of an impossible metaphysical literalism.

You say the story of the flood is an impossibilty. You are the same class Peter was talking about.
2Pet. 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pet. 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pet. 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pet. 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pet. 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Christ mentioned Noah and the flood.
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Notice this: They were willingly ignorant. They didn’t WANT TO KNOW. That is the same sin the people before the flood committed.

Empricism relies on experience and does not allow for something out of the ordinary, a miracle. The flood was extaordinary, but it happened. Can God perform miracles? YES. What is a miracle? A mracle is something for which there is no ordinary explanation. To explain what I mean, here is an example.

The earth came from the hand of God perfect in form and climate. It never rained, Gen 2:5, and apparently the climate was even all the year, with no cold polar regions, This is based on the word of God.
Gen. 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

This simple statement says that seasons with cold and heat wil not cease. Apparently heat and cold were not the usual conditions before.

The journal Science published an article By Sager and Koppers of Texas A&M, in Jan, 2000, about how the earth’s poles had wandered. This verifies the fact the the earth had been tilted and the north pole had wandered from Scandinavia to the gulf of Alaska. When it happened, of course is subject to interpretation. The fact that it happened is the fact we live with. It has settled at about 23.5 degrees to the plane of the earth’s orbit. This is why we have seasons. This agrees with the story in Genesis 8.

Sager and Koppers didn’t say what caused the wandering, but it must have been a big jolt to tip an object the size of the earth. In fact the side article in the same issue speculated on the effect on the continents.

The continents are not firmly fastened as one might think. There is a semimolten layer several hundred miles deep called the mantle under the crust we live on. At times the mantle breaks through the crust and we have a volcano. So when a sudden shock of tipping the earth happened all kinds of unexpected things happened. Continents slid. Oceans appeared where there was none before.

Let’s look at the story in Genesis.
Gen. 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

What does it mean, the fountains of the great deep were broken up? Great water spouts burst out of the earth. Where did the water come from? Apparently there were immense amounts of water under the surface and when the shock of tipping the earth’s axis the imense gyroscopic forces released caused the continents to slide into new positions.

For instance, the bight of Africa more or less fits the bulge of South America. The islands that form the Falkland chain between Antarctica and South America appear as if they had been dragged and left behind. There are other examples. For instance, India seems to have been pushed up against Asia and wrinkled up the Himalayas.

There is an immense amount of heat just below the crust of the earth. Oil wells are hot because they are penetrating close to the hot mantle of the earth.

The most invisible but real feature is a discovery of the midocean ridges, discovered since 1945, a 44,000 mile long chain of volcanic eruptions that circle the earth and run the length of the Atlantic and up the 150th meridian, past the Galapagos, through the gulf of Califonia past Los Angeles and San Francisco and out to sea. This accounts for the numerous earthquakes in California.

The National Geographic Society published a map called the earth’s fractured surface, a map showing the ocean bottom. It looks like a wrinkled dried prune, with thousands of fractures. The society magazine had a story about a “black smoker,” an underwater hot vent that emits 700 degree water and has a colony of blind shrimp nearby.

The ridges have numerous volcanoes that put out lava and hot water. This is evidently a remnant of the flood spoken about in Genesis 7:11. Is this a myth, a fanciful tale handed down by word of mouth? Hardly. We are talking about facts. The words in Genesis are the words of a man who was there and wrote what he experienced. The midocean ridges apparently are artifacts left from the fountains of the great deep.

These are evidences of a global flood and should be enough to convince all but the most hardened skeptic.

[kofh2u]

quote Kofh2u
I believe the story very much.

It is not a literal story, though.

It is a magic story, in the sense of literature that can carry itself forward into future generations. An epic. More, it has proven to capture the audience of other cultures.

I do not criticize those who are able to accept the irrationality of an impossible metaphysical literalism. These are people who were faithful in earlier times, when spirit worlds and ghosts, king arthur, and such tales were appropriate to our knowledge and mental capacities. They maintained faith in the Lord and their interpretation was effective for transmission of the Word into our own times.

Do not confuse Faith in men's interpretation of the bible with faith in Christ.

To follow the rational meaning of Torah is not to adopt an ancient position and insist on silence thereafter.
That is not Empiricism.
------------------------
I had to look up the definition of that word. What I found surprised me.
Dictionary definition
Empirical A sect of ancient Greek physicians who followed emprical methods; anyone who follows an empirical method, a quack, a charlatan. Pertaining to or derived from, or guided by experience or observation alone; without regard to regard to science or theory esp in medical practice: hence, unscientific; charlatinic. empiricism Empirical method or practice, esp undue reliance upon experience; quackery, in philosphy, the doctrine that all knowledge is derived from experience.
-----------------
quote
The Scientific Method of Empiricism says that a comprehensive Hypothesis should guide our thinking, rather than the rigid dogma of ancient waves of traditional metaphysical religious interpretations that organized priesthoods use to sway society. Galilleo?
-----------------------


You evidently class the Genesis story of creation and the flood as being a myth. How can you say you believe it when you obvously class it in the same category as king Arthur and dragons and other mythical tales, and say it is an irrationality of an impossible metaphysical literalism.

You say the story of the flood is an impossibilty. You are the same class Peter was talking about.
2Pet. 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
2Pet. 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pet. 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pet. 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pet. 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Christ mentioned Noah and the flood.
Luke 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

Notice this: They were willingly ignorant. They didn’t WANT TO KNOW. That is the same sin the people before the flood committed.

Empricism relies on experience and does not allow for something out of the ordinary, a miracle. The flood was extaordinary, but it happened. Can God perform miracles? YES. What is a miracle? A mracle is something for which there is no ordinary explanation. To explain what I mean, here is an example.

The earth came from the hand of God perfect in form and climate. It never rained, Gen 2:5, and apparently the climate was even all the year, with no cold polar regions, This is based on the word of God.
Gen. 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

This simple statement says that seasons with cold and heat wil not cease. Apparently heat and cold were not the usual conditions before.

The journal Science published an article By Sager and Koppers of Texas A&M, in Jan, 2000, about how the earth’s poles had wandered. This verifies the fact the the earth had been tilted and the north pole had wandered from Scandinavia to the gulf of Alaska. When it happened, of course is subject to interpretation. The fact that it happened is the fact we live with. It has settled at about 23.5 degrees to the plane of the earth’s orbit. This is why we have seasons. This agrees with the story in Genesis 8.

Sager and Koppers didn’t say what caused the wandering, but it must have been a big jolt to tip an object the size of the earth. In fact the side article in the same issue speculated on the effect on the continents.

The continents are not firmly fastened as one might think. There is a semimolten layer several hundred miles deep called the mantle under the crust we live on. At times the mantle breaks through the crust and we have a volcano. So when a sudden shock of tipping the earth happened all kinds of unexpected things happened. Continents slid. Oceans appeared where there was none before.

Let’s look at the story in Genesis.
Gen. 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.

What does it mean, the fountains of the great deep were broken up? Great water spouts burst out of the earth. Where did the water come from? Apparently there were immense amounts of water under the surface and when the shock of tipping the earth’s axis the imense gyroscopic forces released caused the continents to slide into new positions.

For instance, the bight of Africa more or less fits the bulge of South America. The islands that form the Falkland chain between Antarctica and South America appear as if they had been dragged and left behind. There are other examples. For instance, India seems to have been pushed up against Asia and wrinkled up the Himalayas.

There is an immense amount of heat just below the crust of the earth. Oil wells are hot because they are penetrating close to the hot mantle of the earth.

The most invisible but real feature is a discovery of the midocean ridges, discovered since 1945, a 44,000 mile long chain of volcanic eruptions that circle the earth and run the length of the Atlantic and up the 150th meridian, past the Galapagos, through the gulf of Califonia past Los Angeles and San Francisco and out to sea. This accounts for the numerous earthquakes in California.

The National Geographic Society published a map called the earth’s fractured surface, a map showing the ocean bottom. It looks like a wrinkled dried prune, with thousands of fractures. The society magazine had a story about a “black smoker,” an underwater hot vent that emits 700 degree water and has a colony of blind shrimp nearby.

The ridges have numerous volcanoes that put out lava and hot water. This is evidently a remnant of the flood spoken about in Genesis 7:11. Is this a myth, a fanciful tale handed down by word of mouth? Hardly. We are talking about facts. The words in Genesis are the words of a man who was there and wrote what he experienced. The midocean ridges apparently are artifacts left from the fountains of the great deep.

These are evidences of a global flood and should be enough to convince all but the most hardened skeptic.

First, let me acknowledge that your literalism concerning the reading of Genesis does not mean:

"...we must check our minds at the door."

I fully appreciate that especially, in times long past, this lkteral reading was not only all that men had to render meaning.

Before the Scientific Revolution @1600, prior to the age of Empirical Science, men were totally convinced by stories that were grounded in superstition, Platonian conjectures, an fables proported to be true.
Certainly, the bible would have never have been transmitted from those early days if it had been written in anything but metaphor and analogy. All those facts you enumerate from National Geographic, everyone founded upon Empiical Science, are rational to us, but would have been unbelievable, unacceptable in times past.

Truly, the truth is more miraculous than people in those days might have imagined or tolerated.

I respect the long tradition of simple faith in what the bible says.
I complement the ability of ancient men to make a case for the plausibility of metaphors as representing the literal truth.

It was not literal truth, IMO, but truth nevertheless, metaphorically expressed.

Matt. 12:20 A bruised reed (of scriptural interpretion) shall he not
break, and smoking flax (of misguided dogma) shall he not quench, till (after) he send forth (good) judgment unto victory (in ecumenical amalgamation).

Think of what I say is a rational and empirical interpretation, not as a replacement or substitution for your literalism.

Try to understand the interpretation as complementary to other ways of understanding and accepting the words of the Bible.

We know today that men have seven different types of Inteelgence. They are are true but merely differ in perspective.
Logical/mathematical Intelligence, that which is one of the two pillars of Empiricism, is no more "right" that the Intuitive Intelligence of spatial/visual intelligence. It is very similar to men seeing things one way, while women have an entirely different take on matters. Logic of the superego is like oil on the water of our intuition sourced from the Anima.

Consider that the ancient language of the bible writers is more incomprehemsible to our reading today than the disparity between connotaion of the vocabular used.

Such a hypothesis as I am suggesting to you, different strokes for differ folks, is that the bible meant to transmit the message through many social, cultural, and academic stages of human growth and maturity.

I would read if differently, in this great Age of Information, since I live in a paradigm of understanding that insists on rational, factual, empirically supported truths.

The bible is magic in that such a present accomodation is possible, without denying your own from another time and place.

[Arlan]

[QUOTE=Socrates]That's right. Augustine and Luther realised this.



Perhaps so. But don't forget that the original writer was probably not Moses but maybe Adam himself, while Moses was the editor of pre-existing tablets. Supporting evidence is the many editorial comments (e.g. Gen. 26:33, 32:32). Sometimes the ancient tablets were left alone, e.g. 10:19 where directions are matter-of-factly given to Sodom, a city long destroyed and under the Dead Sea by Moses' time.

**** Arlan ~ First correction - So Adam was the original writer of Genesus on pre-existing tablets. Where did you read this? The Genesus Scripture you quote is not supporting evidence at all. Evidence would have to come from an outside source.

Second Correction ~ Sodom was destroyed but destroyed 500 years before Lot's time and the town is not under the dead sea. Archaeologist excelvated it back in the 1960's and found that many thousands of people live there from about 3500BC down to about 2300 BC and then not again till Roman times. Lot was alive about 1850 BC so could not have lived there with live people. It was a dead town when he was alive and had been for 500 years. arlan b.

[mikeledo]

[QUOTE=Arlan]

That's right. Augustine and Luther realised this.



Perhaps so. But don't forget that the original writer was probably not Moses but maybe Adam himself, while Moses was the editor of pre-existing tablets. Supporting evidence is the many editorial comments (e.g. Gen. 26:33, 32:32). Sometimes the ancient tablets were left alone, e.g. 10:19 where directions are matter-of-factly given to Sodom, a city long destroyed and under the Dead Sea by Moses' time.

**** Arlan ~ First correction - So Adam was the original writer of Genesus on pre-existing tablets. Where did you read this? The Genesus Scripture you quote is not supporting evidence at all. Evidence would have to come from an outside source.

Second Correction ~ Sodom was destroyed but destroyed 500 years before Lot's time and the town is not under the dead sea. Archaeologist excelvated it back in the 1960's and found that many thousands of people live there from about 3500BC down to about 2300 BC and then not again till Roman times. Lot was alive about 1850 BC so could not have lived there with live people. It was a dead town when he was alive and had been for 500 years. arlan b.

Your second correction shows the exact problems I came up with in attempting to assign Biblical chronology. Let's add the fact that Hittites were a contemporary of Abraham and they didn't exist until 1850 BCE or so. And Sodom was destroyed 500 years earlier. Heshbon was an Iron Age city which didn't exist until circa 1200 BCE (conquered by Moses) and Jericho and Ai (conquered by Joshua a few years later) were destroyed in the Eraly Bronze age about 1000 years earlier.

Archaelogical evidence for an Iron Age United Monarchy is a joke. The age of the Great Canaanite City States was in the MB period.

Much of the Bible has similar myths to ancient Mesopotamia circa 2000 BCE, and some of it appears to be history of a later period.

This doesn't even begin to cover the literary problems.

[shunyadragon]

[QUOTE=mikeledo]

Your second correction shows the exact problems I came up with in attempting to assign Biblical chronology. Let's add the fact that Hittites were a contemporary of Abraham and they didn't exist until 1850 BCE or so. And Sodom was destroyed 500 years earlier. Heshbon was an Iron Age city which didn't exist until circa 1200 BCE (conquered by Moses) and Jericho and Ai (conquered by Joshua a few years later) were destroyed in the Eraly Bronze age about 1000 years earlier.

Archaelogical evidence for an Iron Age United Monarchy is a joke. The age of the Great Canaanite City States was in the MB period.

Much of the Bible has similar myths to ancient Mesopotamia circa 2000 BCE, and some of it appears to be history of a later period.

This doesn't even begin to cover the literary problems.

These would be more historical and not literary problems and they are the reason that I consider the OT in particular to be a literary narrative reflecting the worldview of the people of the time and not a historical document. The disciplines of archeology combined with literature like the Bible, Babylonian and Egyptian writings may be used to construct a historical frame of reference for these events and bring them into focus as a history of the ancient Middle East.

The anthropological concept of an Eden is an interesting topic, but it should not be taken to strongly to justify religious presupositions. Taken in a more human context like other legends and myths of the different peoples of the world the stroy becomes more real.

[mikeledo]

[QUOTE=shunyadragon]

These would be more historical and not literary problems and they are the reason that I consider the OT in particular to be a literary narrative reflecting the worldview of the people of the time and not a historical document. The disciplines of archeology combined with literature like the Bible, Babylonian and Egyptian writings may be used to construct a historical frame of reference for these events and bring them into focus as a history of the ancient Middle East.

The anthropological concept of an Eden is an interesting topic, but it should not be taken to strongly to justify religious presupositions. Taken in a more human context like other legends and myths of the different peoples of the world the stroy becomes more real.

I would agree with you. However there seems to be a historical basis for many of the myths or tales in the Bible. I do not believe in the miracles surrounding the stories nor do I believe stories not supported by the records in stone. We can use demonstrated ancient techniques from the Gilgamesh Epic to show the Bible was a living document and later events were superimposed on an existing cosmic myth. Biblical Eden is the Sumerian tale of Dilmun transposed.

[Tim Locke]

I was reading Genesis again the other day. As always, I keep wondering where Eden was. I would say it was lost in the flood except that the language seems to indicate that the writer was speaking of a places that could identify where it was.
[snip]
there was one river, which watered the garden. After the garden it split.
I know some believe Eden was Iraq, but I wonder? One river encompassed Africa I think. So I guess what i want is some help answering my curiosity. Was the writer talking of something that existed in his day? If so then we should be able to clearly find Eden. What are the modern names of the rivers Gihon and Hiddekel? Those two rivers frustrate me.
Finally, what does archeological evidence show concerning where Eden was and so on?
I sure hope these questions made sense.

The best theory I've seen is the one put forward by the British Egyptologist David Rohl.

Rohl has written at least three books on the period of time from Adam and Eve to King Solomon (note: the date is of first publish, the links are to the paperbacks which were published later):

• 1995: A Test of Time (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...152031-0613418)
• 1999: Legend: The Genesis of Civilization (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...152031-0613418)
• 2003: From Eden to Exile: The Epic History of the People of the Bible (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...152031-0613418)

(More info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Rohl)

The following two books are of interest in this thread:

• Legend - The Genesis of Civilization. (Eden to the founding of Egypt)
• From Eden to Exile. (expands on the first part of 'Legend')

Rohl believes he has found an error in the chronology of the Egyptian Pharoahs. Once corrected, the chronology is shifted by several decades.

Many modern archaeologists say that they do not find the Bible in the ground, at least not when the Bible says it happened. What Rohl has found is that, after correcting/shifting the chronology, the Bible IS found in the ground at the right time after all. Most of this information is in 'A Test of Time'.

In 'Legend', Rohl begins with his theory of where Eden is. In 'From Eden to Exile', Rohl expands on it. Let's take a look at Genesis (The NET translation is available at www.bible.org):

9 The Lord God made all kinds of trees grow from the soil, every tree that was pleasing to look at and good for food. (Now the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were in the middle of the orchard.)10 Now a river flows from Eden to water the orchard, and from there it divides into four headstreams. 11 The name of the first is Pishon; it runs through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is pure; pearls and lapis lazuli are also there). 13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it runs through the entire land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is Tigris; it runs along the east side of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates.

20 The man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all the living.

24 When he drove the man out, he placed on the eastern side of the orchard in Eden angelic sentries who used the flame of a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life.

16 So Cain went out from the presence of the Lord and lived in the land of Nod, east of Eden.

There are numerous points of information listed here which might be used to prove whether we have found Eden:

1. A garden in the East of an area named Eden.
2. A garden in the East of an area named Eden.
3. A tree of life in the middle of the garden.
4. A tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the middle of the garden.
5. A river flowing from [another part of] Eden to water the garden, *
6. which then parts/divides becoming four [river] heads.
7. A first river named Pishon, *
8. which flows through the entirety of a land named Havilah, *
9. which is known for pure gold, *
10. and pearls (variously translated: bdellium [gum/aromatic resin], bdolach, carbuncle, rare perfumes), *
11. and lapis lazuli (variously translated: onyx, emerald, shoham stone). *
12. A second river named Gihon, *
13. which flows through the entirety of a land named Cush. *
14. A third river named Tigris, *
15. which runs along the east side of Assyria. *
16. A fourth river named Euphrates. *
17. Adam's wife, Eve, was the Mother of all Living *
18. Cherubim on the Eastern side of the garden in Eden, *
19. who used a whirling sword to guard the way to the tree of life.
20. Nod to the East of Eden *

Rohl claims to have found at least these 14 asterisked points and potentially a few more points from this list. Some are detailed in 'Legend' and more are detailed in 'From Eden to Exile'.

There have been television documentaries made of 'A Test of Time' and 'Legend' and I think there was also one for 'Pharoahs & Kings'.

Rohl used to have a web site up but it went down for updating a year or two ago and doesn't seem to have returned. I think the domain name was www.nunki.net.

[shunyadragon]

I would agree with you. However there seems to be a historical basis for many of the myths or tales in the Bible. I do not believe in the miracles surrounding the stories nor do I believe stories not supported by the records in stone. We can use demonstrated ancient techniques from the Gilgamesh Epic to show the Bible was a living document and later events were superimposed on an existing cosmic myth. Biblical Eden is the Sumerian tale of Dilmun transposed.

There is a historic basis for these stories like the flood and Eden. An important cyclic event that pays a distinct role in Middle East history is a severe devastating drought when rains vertually end for seven or more years that occurs every ~1500 years with a lesser drought cycle of ~750 years. These drought events can turn any Eden to dust and major rivers dry up.

[shunyadragon]

I just spent the better part of a week with OT Professor Richard Pratt from Reformed Theological Seminary -- his spin (an one held by a number of ancient Jewish scholars) was that Eden was at the site of Jerusalem. As such, it was "the mountain of God." This was seen as the one place that is at the center of the world.

Not sure that I buy it, but it is an interesting theory nevertheless.

Biblically the Garden of Eden and the Fall are more likely related to one or more of the world wide catastrophic drought events that regularly devastate local and regional regions every ~1500 years, with a possible lesser event on a ~750 year cycle. These occur in conjunction with the progressive drying of the arid belt which includes the Sahara. These events are known to virtually devastate regions and civilizations that were once verdant and lush Edens. In and around the Middle East there are numerous abandoned ruined ancient cities are located in what were once verdent paradises. This happened to the Maya of Guatamala, and the Old kingdom of Egypt. One of these events may have also partly inspired the story of Moses and Exodus from Egypt. Many of the candidates mentioned are potential Edens that suddenly became deserts and the few survivers were driven out of Eden.

Sorry for this repeat, I did not realize I posted this before.

[eprom]

For a lot more info on the Eden in Israel perspective, you can go here:

http://www.faith-friends.com/

The theory suggests that Eden's first river went from Mount Zion, through the garden in the Mount of Olives, and then underground where the Dead Sea is now located, re-appering as springs at the headwaters of the four rivers mentioned in Genesis 2. Lots of Biblical refferences to support the model and the implications of this proposition.

[shunyadragon]

The best theory I've seen is the one put forward by the British Egyptologist David Rohl.

Rohl has written at least three books on the period of time from Adam and Eve to King Solomon (note: the date is of first publish, the links are to the paperbacks which were published later):

Rohl claims to have found at least these 14 asterisked points and potentially a few more points from this list. Some are detailed in 'Legend' and more are detailed in 'From Eden to Exile'.

There have been television documentaries made of 'A Test of Time' and 'Legend' and I think there was also one for 'Pharoahs & Kings'.

Rohl used to have a web site up but it went down for updating a year or two ago and doesn't seem to have returned. I think the domain name was www.nunki.net.

I am familiar with Rohl, and find his work interesting. I bo believe he stretches things a bit to make them fit. It would be incorrect to say that historians do not find history in the Bible, they do, but not in an accurate chronological and coherent way. For Biblical history to come into clear focus, you have fit the pieces of the puzzle from many sources, and basic archeological research would be the standard, not the Bible.

After reading over the posts and sources cited I conclude that the depiction of the Garden of Eden was the 'known world', which includes many different places in the Middle East rolled into one narrative. I believe Eden could be a depiction of the lost paradise due to the devastating crippling cyclic droughts that desertified large regions of North Africa and the Middle East. As is nnormal for primative peoples, natural disasters are Divine instruments of punishment.

[eprom]

Interesting article on the location of Eden from The Book of Jubilees – Just wondering if anyone might see some holes in the idea. Go here and scrole down to Eden in The Book of Jubilees. http://www.faith-friends.com/index.p...d=18&Itemid=44

Includs maps and quite a detailed explination.

[DanN1]

Eden was in extreme northwestern Iran near the Turkish border, give or take 150 miles. Though I have evidence I shall cite absolutely none.

[Snooky]

For what its worth:
My son's Christian Church teaches Eden is Jerusalem. Also, in the Book of Jubliees, (can't quote, as it was not my copy) the author believed it was Jerusalem.

[runtmc2jc]

Rivers do not normally (if ever) break into four heads and flow in four different directions except in the case of a Delta such as the Nile. This could also have been descriptive of the area where the Tigris and the Euphrates flow into the Persian Gulf. Furthermore, we read that the Pishon "flows around the whole land of Havilah."

Havilah is a reference to lands in northern Arabia where the descendants of Ishmael made their homes (Genesis 25:18).

In the 1990's, Boston University scientist Farouk El-Baz used photos from satellites orbiting the earth and space Shuttle Imaging Radar to locate an underground river which now runs under a portion of the desert of Saudi Arabia (James A. Sauer, "The River Runs Dry," Biblical Archaeology Review, Vol. 22, No. 4, July/August 1996, pp. 52-54, 57, 64 and Molly Dewsnap, "The Kuwait River," Biblical Archaeology Review, Vol. 22, No. 4, July/August 1996, p. 55.).

In Kuwait, a dry riverbed (Wadi Al-Batin) cuts through limestone and appears to disappear into the desert of Saudi Arabia. Actually, the river ran underground along a fault line under the sand. From the Hyaz Mountains in Saudi Arabia, this river carried granite and basalt pebbles 650 miles northeast to deposit them at its delta in Kuwait near the Persian Gulf.

Some have theorized that this lost river corresponds to biblical descriptions of the Pishon River. This one discovery was enough to make Sauer, the former curator of the Harvard Semitic Museum’s archaeological collections, reverse his previous skepticism regarding the historical accuracy of the Bible.

The Gihon is said to flow around the whole land of Cush (Genesis 2:13). This presents a difficulty in that Cush was the land to the south of Egypt. However, there was also an area to the east of the Tigris River which was known as Cush. If this is the case, then this could be a reference to the Karun River which flows into the Tigris and Euphrates just before they enter the Persian Gulf.

I agree with this assessment........saw a program recently - sat photos showing ancient riverbed on the Saudi/Kuwait side as well as the Karun on the Irani side - which would place Eden probably underwater in the northern extremes of the Persian Gulf....makes more sense than most theories. Thanks for the info on the "other" Cush.