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Russian interference with the 2016 election

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  • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
    Mueller's team are now up to 191 criminal charges against 35 defendants. Not bad for a 'totally baseless witch hunt'.

    The tough-on-crime Republicans will be cheering him on as he continues to find criminals and bring them to justice... right?
    Ah, but this has nothing to do with Trump.
    “He felt that his whole life was a kind of dream and he sometimes wondered whose it was and whether they were enjoying it.” - Douglas Adams.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      The USA isn't about 1 person 1 vote.
      Then it's an undemocratic, and hence immoral country.

      It is about each state having an equal say in the governing of the country. The states get 2 senators each, the house is the only part that is proportional to the population.
      That's a pretty stupid system. It's depressing anyone would defend it.

      Every election the losing side always whines about the electoral college.
      They pretty much only whine if they won the popular vote but lost the electoral college, which is pretty rare in US history except recently.

      But the founding fathers were pretty wise.
      Not really. They genocided the natives, had slaves, and set up a pretty stupid constitution which had to be amended dozens of times and is failing badly in the present day. Not good.

      A country that is dominated by the people in one state is not a egalitarian state, it is a tyranny.

      Oh, those democratic 'tyranny's, how terrible they are!
      "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
      "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
      "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        that bizarre "twist" was built into the system to stop populous states like California from dominating the elections.
        No, that was why the Senate was created. The electoral college was chosen over a popular election so that states with lots of slaves would wield the slave population in presidential elections (to a certain extent, 3/5 compromise and all that) without the slaves actually voting.

        It might have also had the effect of stopping populous states from dominating presidential elections (it is debatable how well it accomplishes that), but the actual reason for it, at least in regards to why they chose that rather than a popular vote, was slavery.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
          get real rogue. Those numbers are meaningless in terms of establishing the relative strength of DT's election. The electoral college based win with a minority vote is a technicality. A sleight of hand trick that hinged on pulling a small majority in strategic 'winner take all' states. And if you dont think the russian misinformation campaign didnt also leverage that same trick you should take a closer look.

          And if there ever was a case for abolishing the electoral college system, Donald Trump is it. We are talking over a million votes down here and he still 'won' because of that bizarre little twist in our system.

          Trump does not and hopefully never will represent the majority in this country. Trump reminds me of that star trek where there is this being that feeds on hatred and violence. Trump won by feeding all the various seeda of hatred in this country. Your hatred of hillar and the dems. Hatred of immigrants. Hatred of muslims. Hatred between whites and blacks. Every divisive thing, every major fear these are what fed and continues to feed trump.

          Jim
          Continuing to call it a "technicality" merely serves to exhibit a woeful misunderstanding on your part of how our electoral process works. Plain and simple.

          I'm always still in trouble again

          "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
          "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
          "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

          Comment


          • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
            wrong. Trump is the worst possible choice for president out of the entire primary field - Democrat and Republican. ANYONE else that presented themselves as a legitimate potential candidate for the 2016 race would have been a better choice*.

            And the fact he was elected, especially by the evangelical base, puts a cap on the fact the in the US, conservative evangelical Christianity has all but capitulated to the god of mammon.


            Jim

            *I am talking about those that received support from the two major parties during their primaries. I'm not talking about fringe elements, or David Duke, or whatever ancillary person you might pull out of a hat to say "ANYONE?" as a brain dead challenge to the fact I'm clearly using hyperbole here.
            During the primaries I kept selecting whoever was left aside from Trump. But when it came down to a choice between him and Hillary I voted against Hillary.

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
              I nearly agree with you. Trump was the second worst possible choice, behind Hillary - who was undemocratically nominated in a rigged primary.
              B-but, but... it was "Her Turn." It didn't matter if the rank and file base wanted her, it was her turn.

              I'm always still in trouble again

              "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
              "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
              "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                Not really. They genocided the natives, had slaves,
                When did they "genocide" the natives? Remember, "genocide" refers to an attempt at utter eradication, which was never done. There were conflicts and forced relocations (though I think the latter only really started after the "Founding Fathers generation"), but not genocide.

                As for the slaves, some of them did, and some didn't. Certainly, a good number of them wanted to get rid of slavery (and in truth, slavery might have faded away on its own accord if not for the cotton gin being made).

                But let's suppose they wiped out all the natives and they were all slaveholders who wanted slavery to be around forever. What does this have to do with how "wise" they were in regards to making a government? Genghis Khan probably killed more people than Hitler, but that doesn't mean he wasn't clearly a brilliant military commander.

                and set up a pretty stupid constitution which had to be amended dozens of times
                Which is why they included an amendment process for changing it. If there was no amendment process and people had to invent one to adjust the constitution, you might have a point here. Setting that aside, it's fairly typical for countries to amend their laws or constitution over time, so I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be.

                Maybe it's supposed to be that more amendments were necessary than was typical, but what is typical? The Constitution of Ireland has 36 Amendments. The Constitution of India has a whopping 101. The Constitution of Germany had been amended 50 times. All of these were also adopted significantly later than the US Constitution (Germany's was made in 1949, India's was in 1950, and Ireland's in 1937), meaning they've had more amendments in less time.

                Granted, I only looked at a few countries' constitutions, so perhaps the US has done more amendments. Do you have data on this to indicate that the United States had to amend things more frequently than is typical for a country with a constitution?

                and is failing badly in the present day.
                Debatable.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                  When did they "genocide" the natives?
                  ~facepalm~

                  Remember, "genocide" refers to an attempt at utter eradication
                  No, it doesn't.
                  "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                  "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                  "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                    Continuing to call it a "technicality" merely serves to exhibit a woeful misunderstanding on your part of how our electoral process works. Plain and simple.
                    No rogue. I understand exactly how it works. He won through a technicality, not by winning approval from the majority of the population. To win with a majority and through the ec vote is to win, period. But some states have the winner take all clause. Not all, some. And it was the winner take all states that gave him the numbers you cited. It is allll technicality. A trick that let's allll person win that has only convinced the barest majority in that specific set of states. It really is not a good system. If you want to help balance the populous states against the less populous, you can give them more deligates. But the percent contribution of the deligates should match the vote in those areas. Winner take all creates a ridiculous skew of the vote.

                    Jim
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                      No rogue. I understand exactly how it works. He won through a technicality, not by winning approval from the majority of the population. To win with a majority and through the ec vote is to win, period. But some states have the winner take all clause. Not all, some. And it was the winner take all states that gave him the numbers you cited. It is allll technicality. A trick that let's allll person win that has only convinced the barest majority in that specific set of states. It really is not a good system. If you want to help balance the populous states against the less populous, you can give them more deligates. But the percent contribution of the deligates should match the vote in those areas. Winner take all creates a ridiculous skew of the vote.

                      Jim
                      I wouldn't call it a technicality because both sides based their campaigns around the rules in place; neither candidate would have ran an identical campaign under a popular vote.
                      "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                      Comment


                      • Another day, another Starlight ‘I hate America!!!’ rant.

                        Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                        Not really. They genocided the natives,
                        Most of the ‘genocide’ you’re thinking about happened decades later or were things the British did.

                        had slaves,
                        Like every other country in the late 18th century did.

                        and set up a pretty stupid constitution which had to be amended dozens of times and is failing badly in the present day. Not good.
                        Interesting considering the French have been through 5 republics and two empires in the same time and the British constitution had had several ‘amendments’, 46 to be exact. It’s always amusing listening to another Starlight rant considering the US had among the oldest governments in the world.

                        Another day, another Starlight rant. Come back to rant again.
                        "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                        GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxmixmudd View Post
                          No rogue. I understand exactly how it works. He won through a technicality, not by winning approval from the majority of the population. To win with a majority and through the ec vote is to win, period. But some states have the winner take all clause. Not all, some. And it was the winner take all states that gave him the numbers you cited. It is allll technicality. A trick that let's allll person win that has only convinced the barest majority in that specific set of states. It really is not a good system. If you want to help balance the populous states against the less populous, you can give them more deligates. But the percent contribution of the deligates should match the vote in those areas. Winner take all creates a ridiculous skew of the vote.

                          Jim
                          Again, sour grapes. Trump won by playing by the same rules that have been in place since George Washington ran. There is no technicality about it.
                          "The man from the yacht thought he was the first to find England; I thought I was the first to find Europe. I did try to found a heresy of my own; and when I had put the last touches to it, I discovered that it was orthodoxy."
                          GK Chesterton; Orthodoxy

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                            ~facepalm~
                            I think it's a valid question. When did they? As I noted, there were conflicts in wars and forced relocations, but not attempts at eradication.

                            No, it doesn't.
                            Genocide: "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"

                            That sounds like utter eradication to me. Even if we want to define it more strictly in the deliberate killing on a large scale (outside of a battle), again, when did that happen during the "Founding Father generation"? Heck, forget their generation, you attacked the "Founding Fathers" in particular, which can be linked directly to such a thing?

                            There are a good number of things to criticize in the US government's treatment of the natives (although I believe the worst of it occurred after the "Founding Father generation"). But labeling it genocide seems to be nothing more than picking an extreme term to try to elicit an emotional reaction. In fact, if anything it seems like it's soft pedaling actual events of genocide like the Holocaust or the Armenian Genocide.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by lilpixieofterror View Post
                              Again, sour grapes. Trump won by playing by the same rules that have been in place since George Washington ran. There is no technicality about it.
                              Sour grapes? It doesn't matter who wins by the electoral college only - in my book that is winning by technicality. I've always thought that aspect of the system was goofy. IF they didn't do the 'winner take all' thing, then I might buy the standard explanation of it balancing highly populated areas against less populated ones. But winner take all is just bizarre. And I have good company. None other that James Madison was dead set against the idea.

                              Further, a candidate I supported (Bush) served as president under such a win, but had the grace to be conscious of what it meant (and his popular vote percentage was much closer as well). He did not have a popular vote mandate, and neither does trump.

                              Source: https://www.history.com/news/the-history-of-the-electoral-college-debate


                              Critics of the Electoral College system call it a relic of the 18th century—when only three-fifths of a black person was counted, and black men, women and white men who didn’t own property couldn’t vote—and argue that it doesn’t fairly represent our nation as it exists today. In recent elections, national campaigns have increasingly focused on a small handful of “battleground” states whose electoral votes are up for grabs, effectively depriving millions of citizens (as many as four out of every five Americans, according to some analysts) of their voice in the electoral process.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              In the case of DT, the electoral college as put the nation in a grave and dangerous place. And against the will of the majority of its people.



                              Jim
                              My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                              If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                              This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                                I think it's a valid question.
                                You could have tried googling it. Here's a reasonably decent looking article on the topic...

                                ...the 1637 Pequot War when Puritan leaders authorized military action to punish Pequots for killing English traders. Supported by Naragansett and Mohegan allies, a colonial force set fire to a village of several hundred Pequots on the Mystic River and killed most of those who tried to escape. The colonists hunted down surviving Pequots, killing some and selling others into slavery, and then imposed a treaty that abolished the Pequot nation...

                                Discussions of genocide in American history generally highlight a few other episodes that occurred prior to 1776, such as King Philip’s War (1675–1678), the effort of British general Jeffrey Amherst to dispense smallpox-infected items to rebellious Indians in western Pennsylvania in 1763, and the Paxton Boys’ slaughter of peaceful Conestogas that same year...
                                The most frequent charge is that the army or fur traders distributed smallpox blankets to Indians on the upper Missouri River in 1837.

                                War, 1776–1815...

                                Removal, 1815–1840...

                                California Gold Rush...

                                The Indian Wars...


                                Genocide: "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group"
                                UN definition since 1948: "committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group..."
                                "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
                                "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
                                "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

                                Comment

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