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Russian interference with the 2016 election

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  • #31
    Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
    Your concluding assertions would appear to be directly at odds with the NYT article I posted earlier.
    Not really. Trump's turn-out was unexpectedly high. The Times article addresses changing choices on who to vote for, rather than choices on whether to turn up and vote.

    Most advertising is directed toward increasing traffic.

    Another tidbit which may be pertinent from the articles in my earlier post is that efforts were made to boost both Sanders and Trump. This may have been more an anti-Hillary push than anything pro-Trump per se, which would make sense in light of the fact that Putin didn't much appreciate the Hillary State Department attempting to help push him out of office.
    I've posted previously about the personal animosity between Putin and Hillary Clinton.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
      Today's news contradicts this thesis.
      I was not talking about paid ads. But the various quizzes and fake news stories spread on facebook. there might be a few government sources but I think most are just scammers trying to make a buck on advertising.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Sparko View Post
        I was not talking about paid ads. But the various quizzes and fake news stories spread on facebook. there might be a few government sources but I think most are just scammers trying to make a buck on advertising.
        Not a few ...
        Overall, Facebook acknowledged to Congress that the Internet Research Agency had bought 3,000 ads on its platform that reached 11.4 million users. The agency’s employees also reportedly made many free posts that reached 126 million users. In addition to polarizing online political conversation, Facebook reported that the Internet Research Agency used Facebook pages to organize 129 real-world events that drew the attention of nearly 340,000 Facebook users.

        ... and highly organized.

        I've seen no evidence suggesting that random Russian scammers played a larger role than this, and I suspect that any interference by Russian nationals anywhere close to this scale would attract the attention of Russian intelligence officials.

        Comment


        • #34
          Trump has reacted to these latest indictments.

          ‘They are laughing their asses off in Moscow’: Trump takes on the FBI, Russia probe and 2016 election
          President Trump questioned the intensifying special counsel investigation of his 2016 campaign and his administration while attacking his own national security adviser, the FBI, Hillary Clinton, former president Barack Obama, Democrats in Congress, CNN and others in a remarkable nine-hour span of tweets that included profanity and misspellings.

          Though the indictments included no Americans, and downplayed the cooperation of Americans, including two Trump campaign workers, with Prigozhin's Internet Research Agency as "unwitting," Trump's reaction has once again made this a story about collusion with the Russians.
          “Very sad that the FBI missed all of the many signals sent out by the Florida school shooter. This is not acceptable. They are spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign — there is no collusion. Get back to the basics and make us all proud!” he wrote.

          Trump's deflections don't fully mask his more general opposition to the investigation of Russian interference.
          Trump has wavered publicly on whether Russia interfered in the election to benefit him, even though all the U.S. intelligence agencies have concluded that it did. After national security adviser H.R. McMaster said Saturday that Russia was to blame, Trump scolded him publicly, calling attention to conspiracy issues involving Clinton that the president himself has fanned. Trump has clashed with McMaster at times, and aides have said that the president finds McMaster to be too professorial.

          “General McMaster forgot to say that the results of the 2016 election were not impacted or changed by the Russians and that the only Collusion was between Russia and Crooked H, the DNC and the Dems. Remember the Dirty Dossier, Uranium, Speeches, Emails and the Podesta Company!” Trump said.

          While Trump's self-evident desire for public acclamation is sufficient to explain his opposition to suggestions that he benefited from the Russians' help, or anyone else's for that matter, the net effect is a presidency aligned with a hostile foreign power that has already interfered with our elections, and is currently engaged in efforts to do the same again.

          I'll note as well that the larger actors mentioned in the Steele memos are not addressed in these indictments, including Sechin, Ivanov, and especially Kremlin presidential spokesman Peskin, described variously as controlling the Clinton dossier, directly on Putin's orders, (2016/80, 20 June 2016), and "the main protagonist in Kremlin campaign to aid TRUMP and damage CLINTON," (2016/100, 5 August 2016).

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
            Trump has reacted to these latest indictments.

            ‘They are laughing their asses off in Moscow’: Trump takes on the FBI, Russia probe and 2016 election
            President Trump questioned the intensifying special counsel investigation of his 2016 campaign and his administration while attacking his own national security adviser, the FBI, Hillary Clinton, former president Barack Obama, Democrats in Congress, CNN and others in a remarkable nine-hour span of tweets that included profanity and misspellings.

            Though the indictments included no Americans, and downplayed the cooperation of Americans, including two Trump campaign workers, with Prigozhin's Internet Research Agency as "unwitting," Trump's reaction has once again made this a story about collusion with the Russians.
            “Very sad that the FBI missed all of the many signals sent out by the Florida school shooter. This is not acceptable. They are spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign — there is no collusion. Get back to the basics and make us all proud!” he wrote.

            Trump's deflections don't fully mask his more general opposition to the investigation of Russian interference.
            Trump has wavered publicly on whether Russia interfered in the election to benefit him, even though all the U.S. intelligence agencies have concluded that it did. After national security adviser H.R. McMaster said Saturday that Russia was to blame, Trump scolded him publicly, calling attention to conspiracy issues involving Clinton that the president himself has fanned. Trump has clashed with McMaster at times, and aides have said that the president finds McMaster to be too professorial.

            “General McMaster forgot to say that the results of the 2016 election were not impacted or changed by the Russians and that the only Collusion was between Russia and Crooked H, the DNC and the Dems. Remember the Dirty Dossier, Uranium, Speeches, Emails and the Podesta Company!” Trump said.

            While Trump's self-evident desire for public acclamation is sufficient to explain his opposition to suggestions that he benefited from the Russians' help, or anyone else's for that matter, the net effect is a presidency aligned with a hostile foreign power that has already interfered with our elections, and is currently engaged in efforts to do the same again.

            I'll note as well that the larger actors mentioned in the Steele memos are not addressed in these indictments, including Sechin, Ivanov, and especially Kremlin presidential spokesman Peskin, described variously as controlling the Clinton dossier, directly on Putin's orders, (2016/80, 20 June 2016), and "the main protagonist in Kremlin campaign to aid TRUMP and damage CLINTON," (2016/100, 5 August 2016).
            I am impressed by your fervent belief that Trump is aligned with a hostile foreign power, despite overwhelming evidence otherwise. In case you missed it, Trump signed off on sanctions against Russia, and Russia is not exactly on the same side in the Syrian conflict. I agree that Trump has an evident desire for poblic acclamation, but polls aren't exactly his friend there.
            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

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            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

            Comment


            • #36
              DWUfecpU0AAE3RA.jpg
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by One Bad Pig View Post
                I am impressed by your fervent belief that Trump is aligned with a hostile foreign power, despite overwhelming evidence otherwise. In case you missed it, Trump signed off on sanctionsbut against Russia, and Russia is not exactly on the same side in the Syrian conflict. I agree that Trump has an evident desire for poblic acclamation, but polls aren't exactly his friend there.
                Please see the o/p re: posts, not posters.

                While not strictly required, it would be well if disagreements were supported by facts.

                It's true that this past August, Trump signed the sanctions bill that passed the House 419-3 and the Senate 98-2 in July, well beyond veto-proof majorities, under duress.
                President Trump signed legislation on Wednesday imposing sanctions on Russia and limiting his own authority to lift them, but asserted that the measure included “clearly unconstitutional provisions” and left open the possibility that he might choose not to enforce them as lawmakers intended.

                Perhaps you were unaware of further reporting in October of his failure to act upon it.
                “We passed the law. They should execute it,” Senator Marco Rubio, Republican of Florida, said earlier on Thursday, before the list was shared with lawmakers. “They say they are struggling to identify the companies to sanction. My answer is, sanction the ones you already know and keep adding to the list.”

                And perhaps you were unaware of more recent reporting.

                Trump administration holds off on new Russia sanctions, despite law

                US names Russian oligarchs in 'Putin list' but imposes no new sanctions

                New York lawmakers press Trump to impose Russia sanctions

                Trump’s Stance on Russia Sanctions Angers Both Moscow and Washington

                Trump declines to implement new Russia sanctions

                I agree the evidence is overwhelming.

                In any case, I was referring to his continued refusal to act upon clear intelligence that Russia intends to repeat its interference in the upcoming elections. Undoing the interference in 2016 is not an option, but failure to act against a recurrence would arguably constitute "high crimes and misdemeanors."

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                  In any case, I was referring to his continued refusal to act upon clear intelligence that Russia intends to repeat its interference in the upcoming elections. Undoing the interference in 2016 is not an option, but failure to act against a recurrence would arguably constitute "high crimes and misdemeanors."
                  What would you call the refusal to do anything about other foreign hacking scandals until one of them led to the debasement and humiliation of Hillary Clinton?
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                    What would you call the refusal to do anything about other foreign hacking scandals until one of them led to the debasement and humiliation of Hillary Clinton?
                    A conspiracy theory.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                      A conspiracy theory.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                        A conspiracy theory.
                        Not so much...

                        ----------

                        The indictment of Russian nationals and entities for alleged attempts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election represents a major intelligence failure on the part of the Obama administration, which was warned about the purported Russian threat since at least 2014.

                        According to numerous mainstream news media reports citing U.S. officials, the Obama administration did not take sufficient action to contend with the alleged Russian threat. Some former Obama administration officials described the White House as being reluctant to contend with Russia’s alleged domestic disruption plots.

                        http://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2...ussian-threat/

                        ----------

                        Like Darth Executor said, Democrats didn't care until Hillary lost.

                        Also, it was John Kerry who approved the visas of the 13 Russians cited in the indictment.
                        Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                        But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                        Than a fool in the eyes of God


                        From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                          Not so much...

                          ----------

                          The indictment of Russian nationals and entities for alleged attempts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election represents a major intelligence failure on the part of the Obama administration, which was warned about the purported Russian threat since at least 2014.

                          According to numerous mainstream news media reports citing U.S. officials, the Obama administration did not take sufficient action to contend with the alleged Russian threat. Some former Obama administration officials described the White House as being reluctant to contend with Russia’s alleged domestic disruption plots.

                          http://www.breitbart.com/jerusalem/2...ussian-threat/

                          ----------

                          Like Darth Executor said, Democrats didn't care until Hillary lost.

                          Also, it was John Kerry who approved the visas of the 13 Russians cited in the indictment.
                          I'm fairly confident that the sitting Secretary of State is not signing individual visas. I'd also like to know exactly what screening process would eliminate coming into the U.S. to start social media sites and undermine U.S. elections by bombarding the populace with fake news stories.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            Also, it was John Kerry who approved the visas of the 13 Russians cited in the indictment.
                            While I've little interest in responding to conspiracy theories, there's a kernel of truth here that's interesting. I wasn't aware that anyone from the St. Petersburg, Russia-based Internet Research Agency had traveled to the U.S.

                            It should be noted that 12 of the 13 individuals named in the indictment worked for the IRA, and the 13th, Prigozhin, ran the organization. The organization itself employed hundreds of individuals, with a budget of over $1.25 million per month by September 2016.

                            The suggestion that the 13 Russians cited in the indictment received visas is contrary to fact.

                            According to CNN ...
                            The indictment also alleges that some of the the defendants traveled to the United States to "gather intelligence." Over a three week trip in June 2014, two of the named defendants made stops in at least seven states, including Colorado, Michigan, Texas and New York, the indictment says.

                            The indictment is online.
                            (p. 12) 30. Defendants and their co-conspirators also traveled, and attempted to travel, to the United States under false pretenses in order to collect intelligence for their interference operations.
                            a. KRYLOVA and BOGACHEVA, together with other Defendants and coconspirators, planned travel itineraries, purchased equipment (such as cameras, SIM cards, and drop phones), and discussed security measures (including “evacuation scenarios”) for Defendants who traveled to the United States.

                            b. To enter the United States, KRYLOVA, BOGACHEVA, R. BOVDA, and another co-conspirator applied to the U.S. Department of State for visas to travel. During their application process, KRYLOVA, BOGACHEVA, R. BOVDA, and their coconspirator falsely claimed they were traveling for personal reasons and did not fully disclose their place of employment to hide the fact that they worked for the ORGANIZATION.

                            c. Only KRYLOVA and BOGACHEVA received visas, and from approximately June 4, 2014 through June 26, 2014, KRYLOVA and BOGACHEVA traveled in and around the United States, including stops in Nevada, California, New Mexico, Colorado, Illinois, Michigan, Louisiana, Texas, and New York to gather intelligence. After the trip, KRYLOVA and BURCHIK exchanged an intelligence report regarding the trip.

                            d. Another co-conspirator who worked for the ORGANIZATION traveled to Atlanta, Georgia from approximately November 26, 2014 through November 30, 2014. Following the trip, the co-conspirator provided POLOZOV a summary of his trip’s itinerary and expenses.

                            So, in 2014, of the 13 individual defendants, three applied for visas, and two had visas approved and traveled within the U.S. for around three weeks during June 2014. In addition, a fourth unnamed co-conspirator applied and was refused a visa. Lastly, a fifth unnamed co-conspirator traveled to Atlanta with an unclear visa status, suggesting this may have been a U.S. national working unwittingly for Prigozhin.

                            The narrow focus of these indictments on one organization, along with its omission of known conspirators closer to Putin, also suggests there may well be further indictments.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              ... coming into the U.S. to start social media sites and undermine U.S. elections by bombarding the populace with fake news stories.
                              The above premise is untrue.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                                While I've little interest in responding to conspiracy theories, there's a kernel of truth here that's interesting. I wasn't aware that anyone from the St. Petersburg, Russia-based Internet Research Agency had traveled to the U.S.

                                It should be noted that 12 of the 13 individuals named in the indictment worked for the IRA, and the 13th, Prigozhin, ran the organization. The organization itself employed hundreds of individuals, with a budget of over $1.25 million per month by September 2016.

                                The suggestion that the 13 Russians cited in the indictment received visas is contrary to fact.

                                According to CNN ...
                                The indictment also alleges that some of the the defendants traveled to the United States to "gather intelligence." Over a three week trip in June 2014, two of the named defendants made stops in at least seven states, including Colorado, Michigan, Texas and New York, the indictment says.

                                The indictment is online.
                                (p. 12) 30. Defendants and their co-conspirators also traveled, and attempted to travel, to the United States under false pretenses in order to collect intelligence for their interference operations.
                                a. KRYLOVA and BOGACHEVA, together with other Defendants and coconspirators, planned travel itineraries, purchased equipment (such as cameras, SIM cards, and drop phones), and discussed security measures (including “evacuation scenarios”) for Defendants who traveled to the United States.

                                b. To enter the United States, KRYLOVA, BOGACHEVA, R. BOVDA, and another co-conspirator applied to the U.S. Department of State for visas to travel. During their application process, KRYLOVA, BOGACHEVA, R. BOVDA, and their coconspirator falsely claimed they were traveling for personal reasons and did not fully disclose their place of employment to hide the fact that they worked for the ORGANIZATION.

                                c. Only KRYLOVA and BOGACHEVA received visas, and from approximately June 4, 2014 through June 26, 2014, KRYLOVA and BOGACHEVA traveled in and around the United States, including stops in Nevada, California, New Mexico, Colorado, Illinois, Michigan, Louisiana, Texas, and New York to gather intelligence. After the trip, KRYLOVA and BURCHIK exchanged an intelligence report regarding the trip.

                                d. Another co-conspirator who worked for the ORGANIZATION traveled to Atlanta, Georgia from approximately November 26, 2014 through November 30, 2014. Following the trip, the co-conspirator provided POLOZOV a summary of his trip’s itinerary and expenses.

                                So, in 2014, of the 13 individual defendants, three applied for visas, and two had visas approved and traveled within the U.S. for around three weeks during June 2014. In addition, a fourth unnamed co-conspirator applied and was refused a visa. Lastly, a fifth unnamed co-conspirator traveled to Atlanta with an unclear visa status, suggesting this may have been a U.S. national working unwittingly for Prigozhin.

                                The narrow focus of these indictments on one organization, along with its omission of known conspirators closer to Putin, also suggests there may well be further indictments
                                .
                                FIFY n/c

                                I'm always still in trouble again

                                "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                                "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                                "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

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