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Russian interference with the 2016 election

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  • #46
    Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
    The above premise is untrue.
    You're saying that the Russians in the indictment did not make social media accounts and bombard the populace (over 13 million people in targetted swing states) with fake news?
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
      You're saying that the Russians in the indictment did not make social media accounts and bombard the populace (over 13 million people in targetted swing states) with fake news?
      P. 5 of the indictment says they did so from "an office at 55 Savushkina Street in St. Petersburg, Russia."

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
        P. 5 of the indictment says they did so from "an office at 55 Savushkina Street in St. Petersburg, Russia."
        Thanks. I had that wrong.
        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          I'm fairly confident that the sitting Secretary of State is not signing individual visas. I'd also like to know exactly what screening process would eliminate coming into the U.S. to start social media sites and undermine U.S. elections by bombarding the populace with fake news stories.
          Do you think the Secretary of State should be responsible for the failures of his own department?
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
            P. 5 of the indictment says they did so from "an office at 55 Savushkina Street in St. Petersburg, Russia."
            Read it again: that was the address of one of the organizations. There were Russian individuals operating in the US.
            Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
            But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
            Than a fool in the eyes of God


            From "Fools Gold" by Petra

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
              Read it again: that was the address of one of the organizations. There were Russian individuals operating in the US.
              That was the address of the principle organization:
              INTERNET RESEARCH AGENCY LLC
              A/K/A MEDIASINTEZ LLC A/K/A
              GLAVSET LLC A/K/A MIXINFO
              LLC A/K/A AZIMUT LLC A/K/A
              NOVINFO LLC

              The remaining two organizations, also owned by Prigozhin, supplied financing.

              The only Russian individuals named in the indictment who traveled in the U.S. were listed upthread, and detailed on pp. 8-9 of the indictment.

              They were Krylova:
              15. Defendant ALEKSANDRA YURYEVNA KRYLOVA (Крылова Александра Юрьевна) worked for the ORGANIZATION from at least in or around September 2013 to at least in or around November 2014. By approximately April 2014, KRYLOVA served as director and was the ORGANIZATION’s third-highest ranking employee. In 2014, KRYLOVA traveled to the United States under false pretenses for the purpose of collecting intelligence to inform the ORGANIZATION’s operations.

              ... and Bogacheva:
              17. Defendant ANNA VLADISLAVOVNA BOGACHEVA (Богачева Анна Владиславовна) worked for the ORGANIZATION from at least in or around April 2014 to at least in or around July 2014. BOGACHEVA served on the translator project and oversaw the project’s data analysis group. BOGACHEVA also traveled to the United States under false pretenses for the purpose of collecting intelligence to inform the ORGANIZATION’s operations.

              A third named individual, Bovda, applied for a visa but was refused.
              19. Defendant ROBERT SERGEYEVICH BOVDA (Бовда Роберт Сергеевич) (“R. BOVDA”) worked for the ORGANIZATION from at least in or around November 2013 to at least in or around October 2014. R. BOVDA served as the deputy head of the translator project, among other positions. R. BOVDA attempted to travel to the United States under false pretenses for the purpose of collecting intelligence to inform the ORGANIZATION’s operations but could not obtain the necessary visa.

              Allow me to suggest that it is more useful to refer directly to the indictment now that it is available than to rely on third party references to the indictment, unless one wishes to test their reliability.

              I would be interested to know where you had received the impression that the 13 named individuals applied for and were granted visas.
              Last edited by Juvenal; 02-19-2018, 06:13 PM.

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                That was the address of the principle organization:
                INTERNET RESEARCH AGENCY LLC
                A/K/A MEDIASINTEZ LLC A/K/A
                GLAVSET LLC A/K/A MIXINFO
                LLC A/K/A AZIMUT LLC A/K/A
                NOVINFO LLC

                The remaining two organizations, also owned by Prigozhin, supplied financing.
                The Internet Research Agency LLC is referenced as ORGANIZATION throughout the indictment, as noted on p. 2.
                2. Defendant INTERNET RESEARCH AGENCY LLC (“ORGANIZATION”) is a Russian organization engaged in operations to interfere with elections and political processes.

                Comment


                • #53
                  So what exactly is interference in an election? As far as I can tell all these people were doing was posting memes on the Internet. Is encouraging americans to vote a certain way "interference"? By this absurdly low standard just about every foreign national who's opined on the election should be indicted.
                  "As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths." Isaiah 3:12

                  There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                    So what exactly is interference in an election? As far as I can tell all these people were doing was posting memes on the Internet. Is encouraging americans to vote a certain way "interference"? By this absurdly low standard just about every foreign national who's opined on the election should be indicted.
                    A general rundown is available in the o/p.

                    Specific to the indictment, in Count One, "Conspiracy to Defraud the United States" ...
                    Defendants, together with others known and unknown to the Grand Jury, knowingly and intentionally conspired to defraud the United States by impairing, obstructing, and defeating the lawful functions of the Federal Election Commission, the U.S. Department of Justice, and the U.S. Department of State in administering federal requirements for disclosure of foreign involvement in certain domestic activities.

                    The "Manner and Means of the Conspiracy" are broken down into:
                    Intelligence-Gathering to Inform U.S. Operations (¶ 29-31)
                    Use of U.S. Social Media Platforms (¶ 32-38)
                    Use of U.S. Computer Infrastructure (¶ 39-40)
                    Use of Stolen U.S. Identities (¶ 41)
                    Actions Targeting the 2016 U.S. Presidential Election (¶ 42-47)
                    Political Advertisements (¶ 48-50)
                    Staging U.S. Political Rallies in the United States (¶ 51-57)
                    Destruction of Evidence (¶ 58)

                    "Overt Acts" are detailed in ¶ 59-85, "All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 371."

                    Count Two involves financial crimes, "All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Section 1349."

                    Counts Three through Eight involve aggravated identity theft, "All in violation of Title 18, United States Code, Sections 1028A(a)(1) and 2."

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                      Do you think the Secretary of State should be responsible for the failures of his own department?
                      I think the buck should always stop at the top, so you should blame Obama and Congress too - after all, he appointed and they approved Mr. Kerry to the position.

                      Seriously, I think it's accurate to recognize the difference between something done by lower eschelon personnel and something done personally by the leader. No leader can, nor should, micromanage their staff. As I noted, if someone has a suggestion for how you go about screening visas to eliminate people who are going to do what these folks did, I'm all ears. Otherwise, there is no error here, and this is just muckracking for muckracking's sake.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Darth Executor View Post
                        So what exactly is interference in an election? As far as I can tell all these people were doing was posting memes on the Internet. Is encouraging americans to vote a certain way "interference"? By this absurdly low standard just about every foreign national who's opined on the election should be indicted.
                        Apparently they tried to organize a Trump rally in Florida or something like that. Trump could draw 15,000+ at his appearances but these guys managed to get 15 to attend.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          I think the buck should always stop at the top, so you should blame Obama and Congress too - after all, he appointed and they approved Mr. Kerry to the position.

                          Seriously, I think it's accurate to recognize the difference between something done by lower eschelon personnel and something done personally by the leader. No leader can, nor should, micromanage their staff. As I noted, if someone has a suggestion for how you go about screening visas to eliminate people who are going to do what these folks did, I'm all ears. Otherwise, there is no error here, and this is just muckracking for muckracking's sake.
                          It's not muckraking, or to borrow from Pauli, it's not even muckraking, as muckraking requires muck. There is no blame attached to failing to uncover a conspiracy that had not yet been formed. Two visas were granted, both prior to June 2014, representing the earliest stages of the conspiracy detailed in the indictment. Even then, one was refused.

                          No visas were granted to any of the co-conspirators at any later date, as far as we can determine from the indictment.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                            It's not muckraking, or to borrow from Pauli, it's not even muckraking, as muckraking requires muck. There is no blame attached to failing to uncover a conspiracy that had not yet been formed. Two visas were granted, both prior to June 2014, representing the earliest stages of the conspiracy detailed in the indictment. Even then, one was refused.

                            No visas were granted to any of the co-conspirators at any later date, as far as we can determine from the indictment.
                            It's muckraking to take a scenario like this one, and attempt to paint people with muck with innuendo and slanted accusations. Both sides do it. After a while, it gets old.
                            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                              Apparently they tried to organize a Trump rally in Florida or something like that. Trump could draw 15,000+ at his appearances but these guys managed to get 15 to attend.
                              I'll remind posters that Russian interference in the 2016 election was only incidentally about Trump, and the Mueller investigation is about Russian interference in the 2016 election. In the latest indictment, Mueller's team writes ...
                              Defendant ORGANIZATION had a strategic goal to sow discord in the U.S. political system, including the 2016 U.S. presidential election. Defendants posted derogatory information about a number of candidates, and by early to mid-2016, Defendants’ operations included supporting the presidential campaign of then-candidate Donald J. Trump (“Trump Campaign”) ...

                              In May 2016 ...
                              19dc-russians2-master768-v2.jpg

                              About a dozen people protested against what they called the threat of radical Islam in Houston in May 2016. They were met by a much larger crowd of counterprotesters. Both sides were organized by Russian groups. Credit Jon Shapley/Houston Chronicle

                              I'm concerned that viewing this interference from a partisan position is forcing Trump's defenders to overlook or minimize Russia's larger strategic goals, and in doing so, to facilitate them.

                              The regular assertions that opposition to Russian interference is principally a Democratic position motivated by the loss of Hillary Clinton is amply contradicted by the votes in both houses to impose sanctions (opposed by a grand total of five legislators), by a series of statements by Speaker Ryan, Majority Leader McConnell, and every prominent Republican who has spoken out on the issue.

                              This partisan argument is more than a mere conspiracy theory; it's a myth.
                              Last edited by Juvenal; 02-20-2018, 07:28 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                                It's muckraking to take a scenario like this one, and attempt to paint people with muck with innuendo and slanted accusations. Both sides do it. After a while, it gets old.
                                Muck exists. This scenario, in which 13 defendants received visas, and these non-existent visas were granted due to inadequate responses to a similarly mythical well-formed conspiracy, does not.

                                Hence, arguments based on this scenario are "not even wrong."

                                So many of these partisan arguments are based on counterfactuals that my immediate reaction on seeing a new one is to first determine whether the basic, fundamental facts are actually facts. In this case, once again, they are not.

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