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Russian interference with the 2016 election

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  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
    This is nothing but lies and spin. Liberals keep trying to dismiss this as a conspiracy theory despite the fact that James Clapper himself straight up admitted they were spying on the Trump campaign
    Your link is broken. But here's a working one:
    NPR FACT CHECK: No, Clapper Has Not 'Admitted That There Was Spying' On Trump Campaign:
    Former Director of National Intelligence James Clapper has not "admitted that there was Spying" on Donald Trump's campaign in 2016...

    President Trump mischaracterized what Clapper said as part of his ongoing political counterattack against federal law enforcement and the intelligence community.

    ...In 2016, Russian intelligence agents began reaching out to members of Trump's presidential campaign. They offered dirt on Trump's opponent, Hillary Clinton, and "off-the-record" meetings with Russian officials. When the FBI got wind of this, it opened a counterintelligence investigation.

    As part of investigators' desire to find out what was happening, they sent a confidential informant, Cambridge University professor Stefan Halper, to talk with three of Trump's campaign advisers.

    One of them, George Papadopoulos, has pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about his contacts with the Russians. Another, Carter Page, had years-long connections with Russia's intelligence service and visited Moscow twice in 2016. A third, Sam Clovis, is believed to have encouraged Papadopoulos to cultivate his ties with the Russians. Clovis' attorney told NPR that Clovis remembered meeting with Halper but that their conversation was mostly about China.

    [Clappers words:] "They were spying on — a term I don't particularly like ... what the Russians were doing," Clapper said on The View. "Trying to understand, 'Were the Russians infiltrating? Trying to gain access? Trying to gain leverage or influence?' Which is what they do."
    Clapper said they were spying on what the Russians were doing.

    Eh? The contents of your linked story say the opposite to your summary. It quotes Clapper saying that as far as he was aware they only sent one person to 'spy'.

    we know from other sources that the spying began before the official investigation!
    Public information so far about the timeline of events at the beginning of the investigation has been contradictory.

    Here you have Obama's Director of National Intelligence bluntly admitting to potentially criminal acts
    Eh? He hasn't admitted anything remotely close to criminal. He said they were concerned about what the Russians were doing so they sent a guy to make contact with a few low-level people in the campaign to find out more about what the Russians were doing. That's standard counterintelligence operations.

    To get from that, to criminal, you've got to invent some sort of crime (other than the crimes that the Trump team was conspiring to commit with the Russians).

    As I asked previously, suppose we found out in 2020 that Trump had planted spies inside the campaign of his Democrat challenger
    For this analogy to work, Hillary would have had to plant the spies, and would have had to have a channel for them to pass information to her.


    So far from the right-wing conspiracy theorists trying to counter the Mueller investigation we've had:
    - The "unmasking" conspiracy.
    - The "wiretapping" plot.
    - Nunes' midnight rush to show the president a crucial document.
    - The "release the memo" controversy.
    - Nunes' memo itself.
    And now:
    - "Spygate".

    None of them have had any merit.
    "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
    "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
    "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
      You guys really are unbelievable. Here you have Obama's Director of National Intelligence bluntly admitting to potentially criminal acts, and you call it a conspiracy theory!

      What's the point of even trying to have a rational conversation with you?

      Would you really yawn and pretend it was nothing? I doubt it.
      Please return to your previous adherence to the rules set for this thread.

      Comment


      • Clapper is denying Trump's charge that he placed a spy in his campaign or that they were spying on the campaign but this seems to be based on the spin that Stefan Halper wasn't a spy but an informer.

        Po-tay-to, po-tah-to

        I'm always still in trouble again

        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

        Comment


        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
          Clapper is denying Trump's charge that he placed a spy in his campaign or that they were spying on the campaign but this seems to be based on the spin that Stefan Halper wasn't a spy but an informer.

          Po-tay-to, po-tah-to
          Funny how those "informants" were acting just like spies.
          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
          Than a fool in the eyes of God


          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

          Comment


          • From what has been stated, post the FBI-briefing-of-politicians on the matter today, it seems like the FBI didn't put anyone at all in or on the Trump campaign. All that happened was an FBI guy outside the campaign talked with 3 low-level aides on the campaign to try to get a feel for why Russian agents were interacting with the campaign.

            So... not a spy, and not "in" the campaign or "on" the campaign team. Just a guy asking a few people a few questions. He's also a Republican, for what it's worth.
            "I hate him passionately", he's "a demonic force" - Tucker Carlson, in private, on Donald Trump
            "Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism" - George Orwell
            "[Capitalism] as it exists today is, in my opinion, the real source of evils. I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate these grave evils, namely through the establishment of a socialist economy" - Albert Einstein

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ... View Post
              There's a lot to unpack here.

              First, look at the headline, and then look at Clapper's startling admission: "They were spying on — a term I don't particularly like ... what the Russians were doing..."

              So here he claims, unconvincingly, that they were spying from within the Trump campaign but weren't actually spying on the Trump campaign. When asked point blank by CNN if they were, in fact, spying on the Trump campaign, Clapper gave this weaselly answer: "It didn’t matter what the—which campaign, and had nothing to do with spying on the campaign per se, and it was about the Russians, which is what we should all be concerned about, including President Trump."

              Talk about word salad! That's the kind of answer my son gives when he doesn't want to admit he was lying. "No, dad, it wasn't a lie per se. I know I wasn't at the park like I said, but I was in the vicinity of the park, which is essentially the same thing, right?"

              So they were spying on the Trump campaign in order to protect him from the Russians, and that Trump should be happy about it. That's how Clapper is trying to spin this. But isn't it funny how they didn't inform Trump about what was going on? And isn't it funny how they didn't also have spies inside Hillary's campaign to sniff out Russian influence? Why do you suppose that is?

              Anyway, here's what the New York Times had to say:

              Source: New York Times

              F.B.I. agents sent an informant to talk to two campaign advisers only after they received evidence that the pair had suspicious contacts linked to Russia during the campaign. The informant, an American academic who teaches in Britain, made contact late that summer with one campaign adviser, George Papadopoulos, according to people familiar with the matter. He also met repeatedly in the ensuing months with the other aide, Carter Page, who was also under F.B.I. scrutiny for his ties to Russia.

              https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/u...stigation.html

              © Copyright Original Source


              So in their capacity of detecting Russian influence, they targeted people inside Trump's campaign. Oh, but they weren't spying on the Trump campaign "per se", they were just spying on individuals inside the Trump campaign. Or... something...

              Of course the Times also lies about exactly who Carter Page was. You see, up until a few months before he volunteered to work on the Trump campaign, he was a trusted FBI employee and star witness in bringing down a Russian agent. Strange how the FBI never volunteered that information when they told the FISA court that Carter Page had ties to Russia.

              And that's not the only thing the Times lied about:

              Source: Spinning a Crossfire Hurricane: The Times on the FBI’s Trump Investigation

              What the Times story makes explicit, with studious understatement, is that the Obama administration used its counterintelligence powers to investigate the opposition party’s presidential campaign.

              That is, there was no criminal predicate to justify an investigation of any Trump-campaign official. So, the FBI did not open a criminal investigation. Instead, the bureau opened a counterintelligence investigation and hoped that evidence of crimes committed by Trump officials would emerge. But it is an abuse of power to use counterintelligence powers, including spying and electronic surveillance, to conduct what is actually a criminal investigation.

              https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/...t-buries-lede/

              © Copyright Original Source



              Originally posted by ... View Post
              The contents of your linked story say the opposite to your summary. It quotes Clapper saying that as far as he was aware they only sent one person to 'spy'.
              Another weasel response, like saying, "We weren't spying on the Trump campaign per se." It's a classic case of "I'm saying less than I know, and you know it". He said he was only aware of one agent, but when asked if there were others, he said, "Never say never," which basically means, "Yes, there were others, but I have plausible deniability."

              And we know there were others besides Halpern because another unnamed agent approached campaign aide Michael Caputo and claimed that he had access to Hillary's emails. Caputo was smart enough not to take the bait, but in light of recent revelations, he now suspects it was attempted entrapment.

              Originally posted by ... View Post
              For this analogy to work, Hillary would have had to plant the spies, and would have had to have a channel for them to pass information to her.
              Oh, give me a break, who do you think you're fooling?

              If Trump did to an opposing campaign what the Obama administration did to the Trump campaign, ya'll would be whooping and hollering and demanding Trump's proverbial head on a platter.

              Originally posted by ... View Post
              So far from the right-wing conspiracy theorists trying to counter the Mueller investigation we've had:
              - The "unmasking" conspiracy.
              This really happened.

              Originally posted by ... View Post
              - The "wiretapping" plot.
              This really happened. Of course the liberal media attempted to bury this one by trying to claim there was a meaningful difference between "wiretapping" and "communication surveillance".

              Originally posted by ... View Post
              - Nunes' midnight rush to show the president a crucial document.
              I'm not sure what you're referring to.

              Originally posted by ... View Post
              - The "release the memo" controversy.
              - Nunes' memo itself.
              The memo itself is pretty damn devastating to the liberal narrative. Part of the reason we haven't seen much movement from Nunes is much of his investigation is running parallel to the work of John Huber and Inspector General Horowitz, who is expected to release his first report in the next week or two.

              Originally posted by ... View Post
              And now:
              - "Spygate".
              This really happened. See above.

              I say again, Nixon's Watergate scandal was peanuts compared to what the Obama administration did.
              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
              Than a fool in the eyes of God


              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

              Comment


              • Hey, ya'll remember that Russian lawyer who met with Trump, Jr.? The meeting that went absolutely nowhere because Junior quickly sniffed out that she was full of crap?

                Turns out one of the participants had a "significant relationship" with Fusion GPS.

                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Source: Why Hillary Really Lost: Obama Didn’t Send Spies to Help Her Campaign

                  If you are stupid enough to believe the establishment media, the true Spygate scandal is that Hillary Clinton did not benefit from Barack Obama’s sending in his spies to spy on help her campaign.

                  The Deep State and its media minions keep desperately trying to reassure us that the Obama administration’s unprecedented spying on Donald Trump’s presidential campaign was altruistic, that the idea was to “help” Trump avoid being compromised by the Russians. If that is the case, why, then, did Obama not order spies into Hillary Clinton’s campaign?

                  [...]

                  After all, it was her campaign supposedly being targeted and hacked by the Russians. It was her most important ally, the DNC, being targeted and hacked by the Russians.

                  If any campaign was in desperate need of Obama’s spies spying on them for the good of all that is pure and noble about America, it was Hillary’s. If you believe this fake news, only one question remains: did Obama’s favoritism towards Trump cost Hillary the election?

                  This is the stupidest attempt at a coup I have ever seen.

                  http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...help-campaign/

                  © Copyright Original Source


                  Last edited by Mountain Man; 05-25-2018, 12:20 PM.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    Source: Why Hillary Really Lost: Obama Didn’t Send Spies to Help Her Campaign

                    If you are stupid enough to believe the establishment media, the true Spygate scandal is that Hillary Clinton did not benefit from Barack Obama’s sending in his spies to spy on help her campaign.

                    The Deep State and its media minions keep desperately trying to reassure us that the Obama administration’s unprecedented spying on Donald Trump’s presidential campaign was altruistic, that the idea was to “help” Trump avoid being compromised by the Russians. If that is the case, why, then, did Obama not order spies into Hillary Clinton’s campaign?

                    [...]

                    After all, it was her campaign supposedly being targeted and hacked by the Russians. It was her most important ally, the DNC, being targeted and hacked by the Russians.

                    If any campaign was in desperate need of Obama’s spies spying on them for the good of all that is pure and noble about America, it was Hillary’s. If you believe this fake news, only one question remains: did Obama’s favoritism towards Trump cost Hillary the election?

                    This is the stupidest attempt at a coup I have ever seen.

                    http://www.breitbart.com/big-governm...help-campaign/

                    © Copyright Original Source


                    Sounds like they have JimL writing their excuses for them.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post


                      This really happened. Of course the liberal media attempted to bury this one by trying to claim there was a meaningful difference between "wiretapping" and "communication surveillance".
                      They were playing a duplicitous game at best relying on the fact that nowadays when a phone is tapped it is no longer necessary to physically connect to the phone line (where the term "wire tap" comes from) in that technology has improved. They used this in order to say that there was no wire tap deliberately giving a false impression that they denied listening into phone conversations. It's sort of like someone getting caught eavesdropping but saying it's not true because they weren't standing under the eaves of a house listening in.

                      Another similar example was when several prominent news sources intoned that they would no longer use the term "partial birth abortion" several years back, because it isn't an actual medical term. Well neither is the term "heart attack" but in the same article where one of them (it was either the New York Times or the Washington Post) was declaring how they wouldn't use this non-medical term they used the term "heart attack."

                      I'm always still in trouble again

                      "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                      "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                      "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        Sounds like they have JimL writing their excuses for them.
                        Keep in mind that they were 100% convinced Hillary was going to win big and that none of this would ever see the light of day. If they weren't so convinced they likely would have taken some CYA steps just to be safe.

                        I'm always still in trouble again

                        "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                        "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                        "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
                          Keep in mind that they were 100% convinced Hillary was going to win big and that none of this would ever see the light of day. If they weren't so convinced they likely would have taken some CYA steps just to be safe.
                          Maybe somebody could email themselves assuring that Obama wants everything done BY THE BOOK!

                          (OK, I'm probably getting kicked out of the thread)
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                            Maybe somebody could email themselves assuring that Obama wants everything done BY THE BOOK!

                            (OK, I'm probably getting kicked out of the thread)
                            You and just about everyone else posting in it lately.
                            Enter the Church and wash away your sins. For here there is a hospital and not a court of law. Do not be ashamed to enter the Church; be ashamed when you sin, but not when you repent. – St. John Chrysostom

                            Veritas vos Liberabit<>< Learn Greek <>< Look here for an Orthodox Church in America<><Ancient Faith Radio
                            sigpic
                            I recommend you do not try too hard and ...research as little as possible. Such weighty things give me a headache. - Shunyadragon, Baha'i apologist

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              Maybe somebody could email themselves assuring that Obama wants everything done BY THE BOOK!

                              (OK, I'm probably getting kicked out of the thread)
                              Anybody who has seen STAR TREK III knows that "by the book" means to be deceptive.
                              Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                              But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                              Than a fool in the eyes of God


                              From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Starlight View Post
                                From what has been stated, post the FBI-briefing-of-politicians on the matter today, it seems like the FBI didn't put anyone at all in or on the Trump campaign. All that happened was an FBI guy outside the campaign talked with 3 low-level aides on the campaign to try to get a feel for why Russian agents were interacting with the campaign.

                                So... not a spy, and not "in" the campaign or "on" the campaign team. Just a guy asking a few people a few questions. He's also a Republican, for what it's worth.
                                The post-briefing response from the partisan Republicans involved in the briefing amounts to a collective deafening silence. To wit, there is no evidence for multiple informants, no evidence for anyone inserted into the campaign, abundant evidence that those contacted by Halper had contact with Russian agents, and even more abundant evidence that the president, who is also the originator of this latest, is a serial conspiracy theorist.

                                In particular, no justification has been offered for outing an FBI informant.

                                Without reliable, sourced information, this subtopic amounts to baseless speculation, and has no place in a serious discussion. Those interested in continuing the topic are welcome to start a separate thread.
                                Last edited by Juvenal; 05-26-2018, 02:11 AM.

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