Florida School Shooting

[Cow Poke]

BREAKING: Broward County Deputies Were Allegedly Told NOT To Enter School. Here's Why.

On Monday, Fox News host Laura Ingraham revealed in an exclusive that Broward County Sheriff's Deputies were supposedly told not to enter Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School unless they had body cameras on, which they did not have.

Ingraham also revealed that police "lost radio transmissions" during the shooting, which also happened at the mass shooting at Fort Lauderdale airport shooting last year, which is also in Broward County.
[Video at link]

Fox News later reported that Broward County Sheriffs deputies would not let medical personnel into the school while students bled out until the school was cleared.

There's so much "information" coming out of Broward County it's hard to know what to believe.

Is it true, for example, that the deputy in question was allowed to 'retire' instead of getting fired because of his union?

[rogue06]

I don't know why this counter-argument keeps popping up. It's been explained over and over again (at least by me) that no one is arguing that access to guns makes people more criminal. The argument is that violence committed with guns is more lethal. You're asking the completely wrong question. Anyways, the pdf that guacamole and I have linked to points out that a lot of those guns come from Gary, IN, which has its own reputation. Not that that matters.

You might want to examine the claims made by guac, who I was responding to, if you want an answer to "why this counter-argument keeps popping up."

[guacamole]

Once again, if Indiana's lax gun control laws are to blame for Chicago's violent crime, then why isn't the place with the lax gun control laws also experiencing crime rates like we see in Chicago?

That, as we have seen over and over, again and again, it is not the case, ought to cause one to realize that the availability of firearms is not the key factor here.

There are certainly other factors--poverty comes to mind; however, the crime rates in places like Gary, Indiana are about on par with Chicago's, iirc.

http://bismarcktribune.com/news/nati...0bda8e.html#31

Chicago was beat to the bottom in 2017 by a number of cities in states with more lax gun laws. Chicago didn't crack the top ten.

[guacamole]

There's so much "information" coming out of Broward County it's hard to know what to believe.

Is it true, for example, that the deputy in question was allowed to 'retire' instead of getting fired because of his union?

Do the unions get to decide who retires and when?

[Sparko]

There's so much "information" coming out of Broward County it's hard to know what to believe.

Is it true, for example, that the deputy in question was allowed to 'retire' instead of getting fired because of his union?

I don't know. but it is starting to look like this is not a good case for "it's the guns fault we need to ban them" - it seems like the police, medical and government officials all screwed up royally every step of the way. They might as well of handed the kid the gun and sent him into the school with their blessing.

I am one who usually defends the police but it is looking like the County Sheriff and his Deputies are completely incompetent and need to be replaced.

[seer]

This is useful to the discussion because it's worth pointing out that this applies to multiple sides in the discussion. People who suffer--and that's obviously not everyone-- beneath a regime of widespread and open access to firearms also have the same rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That is, the political philosophy that defends you defends them also. They have as much a right to try and ameliorate their situation to defend their rights as you do to yours.

That's what I was getting at with respect to Darth's idea that the absolute loss of gun rights, which I haven't argued, should lead to violence against the state and your fellow citizens. Then by that calculus, if this appeal to the Declaration of Independence is justification, then the people wronged by open access--those dying in the horrific public attacks, those living in fear of criminals, etc., have more justification to resort to violence now right against a state that, at best, wrings its hands and clutches at pearls of "hopes and prayers" and, at worst, ignores the suffering. That is a demonstrable loss of the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

fwiw,
guacamole

My point is at what loss of rights would you turn against the state? Is there ever a reason to do so? I say yes... And disarming law abiding citizens would not decrease wonton killing but increase it.

[Mountain Man]

The reason they're so commonly used is because they're easy to use, and widely available. Making murder more difficult should result in a net good.

And knives aren't commonly available and easy to use? Every house in America has a drawer full of them.

Look at a country like England where knives are by far the most common murder weapon:

_99702179_knives_homicides-nc.jpg
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42749089

which leads to ironic pictures like this:

knife2_1436684c.jpg

[Mountain Man]

Property taxes and defense spending.

And you really think Ben Franklin would have objected to that quote being used in defense of our Constitutionally protected rights? I rather doubt it.

[Adrift]

And knives aren't commonly available and easy to use? Every house in America has a drawer full of them.

Look at a country like England where knives are by far the most common murder weapon:

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http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42749089

which leads to ironic pictures like this:

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A woman trying to kill her husband is going to have an easier time of it with a gun than a knife. If you don't think so, then, again, this is just another one of these foundational issues I'm going to have to disagree with people on this forum about.

[Mountain Man]

Once again, if Indiana's lax gun control laws are to blame for Chicago's violent crime, then why isn't the place with the lax gun control laws also experiencing crime rates like we see in Chicago?

I don't think I've ever seen anyone give a satisfactory answer to this.

[Sparko]

A woman trying to kill her husband is going to have an easier time of it with a gun than a knife. If you don't think so, then, again, this is just another one of these foundational issues I'm going to have to disagree with people on this forum about.

Guns are pretty freaking loud. Most people want to keep their murders secret. Not wake up the neighbors with a gun shot. I would think that in premeditated murders, things other than guns are used more in the home. Poison, knives, smothering, blunt objects, fists.

[guacamole]

My point is at what loss of rights would you turn against the state? Is there ever a reason to do so? I say yes... And disarming law abiding citizens would not decrease wonton killing but increase it.

I can understand that--we do need to be vigilant about our rights and work to protect them. However, I think that the people with the legitimate grievance are the ones experience the loss of rights now--not the hypothetical injury that might come in the future if we follow the slippery slope that banning some guns will inevitably lead to banning all guns.

[Adrift]

Guns are pretty freaking loud. Most people want to keep their murders secret. Not wake up the neighbors with a gun shot. I would think that in premeditated murders, things other than guns are used more in the home. Poison, knives, smothering, blunt objects, fists.

And yet, guns are still the tool of choice among spousal homicides. Go figure.

[Sparko]

And yet, guns are still the tool of choice among spousal homicides. Go figure.

Got any data?

and remember I said premeditated. Not spur of the moment anger stuff.

[guacamole]

And you really think Ben Franklin would have objected to that quote being used in defense of our Constitutionally protected rights? I rather doubt it.

I don't know how Franklin would have felt about it. Here's the commentary from a Brookings Institution senior fellow:



https://www.lawfareblog.com/what-ben...in-really-said