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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Machinist View Post
    So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

    I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.
    I do not consider neither illogical as such, and they are simply different propositions based on different assumptions.

    Science does assume something, rather than nothing has always existed. and that our physical existence and Natural Laws have always existed, and are uncaused.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-19-2018, 10:57 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Machinist View Post
      So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

      I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.
      Actually - there are a few more options than that. I would identify four:

      1) A self-existent being/god (I do not see any sign that such a being exists, but if it exists "outside" our universe and is the force that gave the universe rise, it remains a possibility.)
      2) Our universe is self-existent (that suggests that all of the matted in our universe has always existed, which either means a cycling universe - for which there is little/no evidence; or something has to initiate the "growth" from that dense spot that we believe pre-existed the "big bang" - and we do not know what that force could be.)
      3) Infinite recursion - each universe given rise to by the previous universe (again, we can't see past the "big bang," so we have no evidence of this.)
      4) Infinite existence - our universe is time-bound, but could there be some force NOT timebound that keeps spinning of universes? This is similar to the god idea, but is not necessarily sentient.

      We also have the problem that we don't know what "outside the universe" means - because we cannot conceive of something outside of space/time. For example, we often describe the universe as "expanding," but if it contains all space/time, what exactly is it expanding into? And what if time turns out to be an artifact of our universe's specific nature (time, space, matter, energy)? Can the concept of "infinite" have any meaning without a corresponding concept of time? Perhaps time itself came into existent at the moment of the big bang?

      So many things we do not know - which is why I tend to prefer "I don't know." (yet )
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Actually - there are a few more options than that. I would identify four:

        1) A self-existent being/god (I do not see any sign that such a being exists, but if it exists "outside" our universe and is the force that gave the universe rise, it remains a possibility.)
        2) Our universe is self-existent (that suggests that all of the matted in our universe has always existed, which either means a cycling universe - for which there is little/no evidence; or something has to initiate the "growth" from that dense spot that we believe pre-existed the "big bang" - and we do not know what that force could be.)
        3) Infinite recursion - each universe given rise to by the previous universe (again, we can't see past the "big bang," so we have no evidence of this.)
        4) Infinite existence - our universe is time-bound, but could there be some force NOT timebound that keeps spinning of universes? This is similar to the god idea, but is not necessarily sentient.

        We also have the problem that we don't know what "outside the universe" means - because we cannot conceive of something outside of space/time. For example, we often describe the universe as "expanding," but if it contains all space/time, what exactly is it expanding into? And what if time turns out to be an artifact of our universe's specific nature (time, space, matter, energy)? Can the concept of "infinite" have any meaning without a corresponding concept of time? Perhaps time itself came into existent at the moment of the big bang?

        So many things we do not know - which is why I tend to prefer "I don't know." (yet )
        Items 2,3 and 4 are all included under "a self existent Universe (in whatever form)"-I love the way that is stated by the way-thus there are still only two possibilities.
        Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
          Items 2,3 and 4 are all included under "a self existent Universe (in whatever form)"-I love the way that is stated by the way-thus there are still only two possibilities.
          You're using the term "universe" in the way we initially discussed: everything that exists, so your list would have two items on it.

          I'm using the term specifically to refer to the matter/energy/space/time we experience, allowing for the possibility of things OTHER than this universe, hence the four items. As far as I know, modern physics does not preclude the possibility of existence separate from the known universe.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #20
            An uncaused universe requires an uncaused existence. Such a universe would include caused beginnings. Where there would be no first caused beginnings. Caused beginnings are not uncaused. So in really what would be actually uncaused is the uncaused existence as a main constituent of an uncaused universe.
            . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

            . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

            Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

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            • #21
              Originally posted by 37818 View Post
              An uncaused universe requires an uncaused existence. Such a universe would include caused beginnings. Where there would be no first caused beginnings. Caused beginnings are not uncaused. So in really what would be actually uncaused is the uncaused existence as a main constituent of an uncaused universe.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                just because.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  You're using the term "universe" in the way we initially discussed: everything that exists, so your list would have two items on it.

                  I'm using the term specifically to refer to the matter/energy/space/time we experience, allowing for the possibility of things OTHER than this universe, hence the four items. As far as I know, modern physics does not preclude the possibility of existence separate from the known universe.
                  I think Machinist was using it as I was. He will correct me if I am wrong, I expect.
                  Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    "Uncaused existence is indeed self existent being existence. But the universe is more than existence - it being understood to be everything - and not everything is uncaused."

                    "An uncaused universe requires an uncaused existence. Such a universe would include caused beginnings. Where there would be no first caused beginnings. Caused beginnings are not uncaused. So in really what would be actually uncaused is the uncaused existence as a main constituent of an uncaused universe"



                    Bear with me. I am pondering these enigmatic statements.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      This universe, other universes, all matter, light, energy, etc. that exists in any continuum is included.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                        This universe, other universes, all matter, light, energy, etc. that exists in any continuum is included.
                        Then you are using the term "universe" more loosely than I would - and aligned with Jedidiah's use of it. So, to his point, your two alternatives are basically it, AFAICT.
                        The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                        I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                          So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused.
                          I’d say either an infinite regression of causes exists, or something exists (or has existed) uncaused and self-existent. I couldn’t say without hearing further argumentation whether that self-existent something still exists or whether it has ceased to exist.

                          The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.
                          Like Carpe I wouldn't use universe in that way. But even then, it depends on what you mean by necessity. Not dependent on something? Then yes. But if you mean ‘cannot not exist’, then how do we know that? How do we know a self existent thing cannot exist as, say, a brute fact?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            I do wish Machinist would come back an deal with this thread. I wish I could get in touch with him.
                            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                              This universe, other universes, all matter, light, energy, etc. that exists in any continuum is included.
                              uncaused existence = uncaused universe
                              Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                              Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                              But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                              go with the flow the river knows . . .

                              Frank

                              I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by shunyadragon View Post
                                uncaused existence = uncaused universe
                                Why would you say that since you believe that God is the cause of the universe.
                                Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                                Comment

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