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Cogito ergo sum

Here in the Philosophy forum we will talk about all the "why" questions. We'll have conversations about the way in which philosophy and theology and religion interact with each other. Metaphysics, ontology, origins, truth? They're all fair game so jump right in and have some fun! But remember...play nice!

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  • New member question about philosophy

    Hello. This is my first post of Theologyweb.com

    I have a question about philosophy that I have thought about for a very very long time, and was wondering if I could get some insight here:

    It deals with the nature of God, or rather the necessity of God's existence:

    First, does not the most extreme atheist and the most extreme theist begin the same basic logic? The axiom of self existence? By that I mean, SOMETHING existed, whether that was God (in whatever religious garb), or the universe itself.

    If the big bang is asserted, then that condensed ball of matter was simply just there, self existent. If God exists, then he too was self existant (unless you want to assert a self existent infinite regression).

    Thus, God (in whatever form), or the Universe (in whatever form) simply self exists.

    So the atheist and the theist begin with the pre-supposition of self-existence.

    Is this correct in saying this?

    I would ask that some of you here on this forum provide some insight into this before I continue with the other parts of this question.

    Thank you so much.

    Machinist
    Last edited by Machinist; 02-17-2018, 07:46 AM.

  • #2
    Welcome, Machinist....

    Not quite ready to get into anything this deep this morning, but I wanted to say hello.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #3
      welcome Machinist.

      I think it makes more sense to believe a self-existent God created the universe than believing a ball of condensed matter self-existed for eternity then somehow "decided" to explode into the universe. Why didn't it just stay a ball of condensed matter? In fact there was no time before the big bang so how did it start to expand?

      Comment


      • #4
        To Cowpoke,

        Hello to you sir. No rush. Have some coffee and sit in the morning sun a spell.
        Last edited by Machinist; 02-17-2018, 09:06 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          To Sparko:

          Thanks. Whether one is more silly than the other, do they both rest upon an axiom of self-existence? That was my initial question. A ball of goo talking to itself one day while bored and decided to express itself is quite a funny cartoon. But, still, somehow, at odds with all western binary logic, self-existent. Is this correct? I mean no one, no entity created it, or put it there. It was like God, in that it simply was. That is the way it seems to me.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Machinist View Post
            Hello. This is my first post of Theologyweb.com

            I have a question about philosophy that I have thought about for a very very long time, and was wondering if I could get some insight here:

            It deals with the nature of God, or rather the necessity of God's existence:

            First, does not the most extreme atheist and the most extreme theist begin the same basic logic? The axiom of self existence? By that I mean, SOMETHING existed, whether that was God (in whatever religious garb), or the universe itself.

            If the big bang is asserted, then that condensed ball of matter was simply just there, self existent. If God exists, then he too was self existant (unless you want to assert a self existent infinite regression).

            Thus, God (in whatever form), or the Universe (in whatever form) simply self exists.

            So the atheist and the theist begin with the pre-supposition of self-existence.

            Is this correct in saying this?

            I would ask that some of you here on this forum provide some insight into this before I continue with the other parts of this question.

            Thank you so much.

            Machinist
            I agree that some sort of self existence is accepted by both sides. This has been discussed to some degree here.
            Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

            Comment


            • #7
              Basically religion relies on God being self-existent and eternal.

              Science either has to rely a self-existent eternal universe or infinite regression.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                To Cowpoke,

                Hello to you sir. No rush. Have some coffee and sit in the morning sun a spell.
                We haven't seen much of the sun in a couple weeks, which is pretty rare for my part of Texas.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                  Hello. This is my first post of Theologyweb.com

                  I have a question about philosophy that I have thought about for a very very long time, and was wondering if I could get some insight here:

                  It deals with the nature of God, or rather the necessity of God's existence:

                  First, does not the most extreme atheist and the most extreme theist begin the same basic logic? The axiom of self existence? By that I mean, SOMETHING existed, whether that was God (in whatever religious garb), or the universe itself.

                  If the big bang is asserted, then that condensed ball of matter was simply just there, self existent. If God exists, then he too was self existant (unless you want to assert a self existent infinite regression).

                  Thus, God (in whatever form), or the Universe (in whatever form) simply self exists.

                  So the atheist and the theist begin with the pre-supposition of self-existence.

                  Is this correct in saying this?

                  I would ask that some of you here on this forum provide some insight into this before I continue with the other parts of this question.

                  Thank you so much.

                  Machinist
                  I have an definitive opinion on God's existence. He is the uncaused Existence. Uncaused existence needs no God and has no God. Existence needs no proofs. He is the basis for all truth - all reality.
                  Last edited by 37818; 02-17-2018, 09:36 AM.
                  . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                  . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                  Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                    Is this correct in saying this?

                    I would ask that some of you here on this forum provide some insight into this before I continue with the other parts of this question.

                    Machinist
                    Yes, I think most here would agree. Now where do we go?
                    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                      Hello. This is my first post of Theologyweb.com

                      I have a question about philosophy that I have thought about for a very very long time, and was wondering if I could get some insight here:

                      It deals with the nature of God, or rather the necessity of God's existence:

                      First, does not the most extreme atheist and the most extreme theist begin the same basic logic? The axiom of self existence? By that I mean, SOMETHING existed, whether that was God (in whatever religious garb), or the universe itself.

                      If the big bang is asserted, then that condensed ball of matter was simply just there, self existent. If God exists, then he too was self existant (unless you want to assert a self existent infinite regression).

                      Thus, God (in whatever form), or the Universe (in whatever form) simply self exists.

                      So the atheist and the theist begin with the pre-supposition of self-existence.

                      Is this correct in saying this?

                      I would ask that some of you here on this forum provide some insight into this before I continue with the other parts of this question.

                      Thank you so much.

                      Machinist
                      Interesting . . .

                      I tend to word it a bit differently. Atheism is the belief no other worlds exist other than our physical existence, or our physical existence is self-existent. This is the assumption of Philosophical Naturalism.

                      Theist, and other believers in a Divine Source believe the Divine Source is self-existent, and the physical existence is dependent on the Divine Source.

                      I do not consider them the same presupposition for the belief system.
                      Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
                      Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
                      But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

                      go with the flow the river knows . . .

                      Frank

                      I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

                        I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                          So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

                          I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.
                          ok...
                          Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                            So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

                            I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.
                            Don't forget to edit your profile and set your faith designation. Thanks.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Machinist View Post
                              So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

                              I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.
                              Uncaused existence is indeed self existent being existence. But the universe is more than existence - it being understood to be everything - and not everything is uncaused.
                              Last edited by 37818; 02-19-2018, 09:02 AM.
                              . . . the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; . . . -- Romans 1:16 KJV

                              . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 KJV

                              Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1 KJV

                              Comment

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