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Thread: New member question about philosophy

  1. #131
    tWebber
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    One problem is that no one, as far as I know, has a very good understanding of the concept of "cause," and whether uncaused events are possible. The question is whether this universe resulted from such an event.

    That being said, only God would have aseity, that is, have existence in, by, and through himself. No universe or multiverse would have aseity.

  2. #132
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    One problem is that no one, as far as I know, has a very good understanding of the concept of "cause," and whether uncaused events are possible. The question is whether this universe resulted from such an event.

    That being said, only God would have aseity, that is, have existence in, by, and through himself. No universe or multiverse would have aseity.
    That means nothing more than "necessary existence". So why can't a universe, that is an infinite substance, out of which multiple universes arise, have what you call aseity? What title you give it, whether god or universe seems to me to be irrelevant.

  3. #133
    tWebber Chrawnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    That means nothing more than "necessary existence". So why can't a universe, that is an infinite substance, out of which multiple universes arise, have what you call aseity? What title you give it, whether god or universe seems to me to be irrelevant.
    There doesn't seem to be any compelling reasons to ascribe aseity to the universe, or any potential multi-verse. There is nothing about what we currently know about the universe that would lead to the conclusion that it's a necessary existence.

  4. #134
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrawnus View Post
    There doesn't seem to be any compelling reasons to ascribe aseity to the universe, or any potential multi-verse. There is nothing about what we currently know about the universe that would lead to the conclusion that it's a necessary existence.
    There is nothing about what we currently know about god that would lead to the conclusion that one exists.

  5. #135
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    One problem is that no one, as far as I know, has a very good understanding of the concept of "cause," and whether uncaused events are possible. The question is whether this universe resulted from such an event.

    That being said, only God would have aseity, that is, have existence in, by, and through himself. No universe or multiverse would have aseity.
    Problem, science does not propose that there is a concept of the possibility of 'uncaused events.' Science does propose the possibility that the Quantum World is an uncaused existence, and all cause and effect events arise from the Quantum World the realm of Quantum Mechanics.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  6. Amen JimL amen'd this post.
  7. #136
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    That means nothing more than "necessary existence". So why can't a universe, that is an infinite substance, out of which multiple universes arise, have what you call aseity? What title you give it, whether god or universe seems to me to be irrelevant.
    What would give this infinite substance necessity or aseity? If it were infinite and it existed eternally or unbounded by temporal limits, that would just be a brute fact. If there's something answering the definition of "God" though, necessity/aseity would be essential to that defintion. Without those properties, that thing wouldn't be God, imho.

  8. #137
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    Problem, science does not propose that there is a concept of the possibility of 'uncaused events.' Science does propose the possibility that the Quantum World is an uncaused existence, and all cause and effect events arise from the Quantum World the realm of Quantum Mechanics.
    Right you are. Properties or texture of the quantum vacuum...

  9. #138
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    What would give this infinite substance necessity or aseity? If it were infinite and it existed eternally or unbounded by temporal limits, that would just be a brute fact. If there's something answering the definition of "God" though, necessity/aseity would be essential to that defintion. Without those properties, that thing wouldn't be God, imho.
    Not following. Perhaps you mean something different regarding necessity and aseity. Necessity and aseity of any infinite and eternal thing, whether it be called god or universe, would be just brute facts.

  10. #139
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimL View Post
    Not following. Perhaps you mean something different regarding necessity and aseity. Necessity and aseity of any infinite and eternal thing, whether it be called god or universe, would be just brute facts.
    Not the way I understand them, Jim. They have been traditionally attributed to God, at least in the Judeo-Christian tradition, precisely to avoid the charge of bruteness or arbitrariness. God carries within himself his own reason for being. This is what would make God necessary and set God apart from anything that merely happens to exist, such as a universe/multiverse, even if it is infinite and/or eternal.

  11. #140
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim B. View Post
    Not the way I understand them, Jim. They have been traditionally attributed to God, at least in the Judeo-Christian tradition, precisely to avoid the charge of bruteness or arbitrariness. God carries within himself his own reason for being. This is what would make God necessary and set God apart from anything that merely happens to exist, such as a universe/multiverse, even if it is infinite and/or eternal.
    Whatever the eternal, uncaused, and infinite thing is, it is by definition necessary existence, a brute fact as you say. To have existence in, by, and through itself, what you call aseity, is just another way of saying necessary, or brute fact.

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