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Thread: New member question about philosophy

  1. #11
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    Hello. This is my first post of Theologyweb.com

    I have a question about philosophy that I have thought about for a very very long time, and was wondering if I could get some insight here:

    It deals with the nature of God, or rather the necessity of God's existence:

    First, does not the most extreme atheist and the most extreme theist begin the same basic logic? The axiom of self existence? By that I mean, SOMETHING existed, whether that was God (in whatever religious garb), or the universe itself.

    If the big bang is asserted, then that condensed ball of matter was simply just there, self existent. If God exists, then he too was self existant (unless you want to assert a self existent infinite regression).

    Thus, God (in whatever form), or the Universe (in whatever form) simply self exists.

    So the atheist and the theist begin with the pre-supposition of self-existence.

    Is this correct in saying this?

    I would ask that some of you here on this forum provide some insight into this before I continue with the other parts of this question.

    Thank you so much.

    Machinist
    Interesting . . .

    I tend to word it a bit differently. Atheism is the belief no other worlds exist other than our physical existence, or our physical existence is self-existent. This is the assumption of Philosophical Naturalism.

    Theist, and other believers in a Divine Source believe the Divine Source is self-existent, and the physical existence is dependent on the Divine Source.

    I do not consider them the same presupposition for the belief system.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

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    So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

    I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.

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    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

    I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.
    ok...
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

    I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.
    Don't forget to edit your profile and set your faith designation. Thanks.

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

    I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.
    Uncaused existence is indeed self existent being existence. But the universe is more than existence - it being understood to be everything - and not everything is uncaused.
    Last edited by 37818; 02-19-2018 at 08:02 AM.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

    I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.
    I do not consider neither illogical as such, and they are simply different propositions based on different assumptions.

    Science does assume something, rather than nothing has always existed. and that our physical existence and Natural Laws have always existed, and are uncaused.
    Last edited by shunyadragon; 02-19-2018 at 09:57 AM.
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused. The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.

    I haven't had time to begin the next part of my question, but plan to work on it later on this evening. Thank you to all contributors.
    Actually - there are a few more options than that. I would identify four:

    1) A self-existent being/god (I do not see any sign that such a being exists, but if it exists "outside" our universe and is the force that gave the universe rise, it remains a possibility.)
    2) Our universe is self-existent (that suggests that all of the matted in our universe has always existed, which either means a cycling universe - for which there is little/no evidence; or something has to initiate the "growth" from that dense spot that we believe pre-existed the "big bang" - and we do not know what that force could be.)
    3) Infinite recursion - each universe given rise to by the previous universe (again, we can't see past the "big bang," so we have no evidence of this.)
    4) Infinite existence - our universe is time-bound, but could there be some force NOT timebound that keeps spinning of universes? This is similar to the god idea, but is not necessarily sentient.

    We also have the problem that we don't know what "outside the universe" means - because we cannot conceive of something outside of space/time. For example, we often describe the universe as "expanding," but if it contains all space/time, what exactly is it expanding into? And what if time turns out to be an artifact of our universe's specific nature (time, space, matter, energy)? Can the concept of "infinite" have any meaning without a corresponding concept of time? Perhaps time itself came into existent at the moment of the big bang?

    So many things we do not know - which is why I tend to prefer "I don't know." (yet )
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    Actually - there are a few more options than that. I would identify four:

    1) A self-existent being/god (I do not see any sign that such a being exists, but if it exists "outside" our universe and is the force that gave the universe rise, it remains a possibility.)
    2) Our universe is self-existent (that suggests that all of the matted in our universe has always existed, which either means a cycling universe - for which there is little/no evidence; or something has to initiate the "growth" from that dense spot that we believe pre-existed the "big bang" - and we do not know what that force could be.)
    3) Infinite recursion - each universe given rise to by the previous universe (again, we can't see past the "big bang," so we have no evidence of this.)
    4) Infinite existence - our universe is time-bound, but could there be some force NOT timebound that keeps spinning of universes? This is similar to the god idea, but is not necessarily sentient.

    We also have the problem that we don't know what "outside the universe" means - because we cannot conceive of something outside of space/time. For example, we often describe the universe as "expanding," but if it contains all space/time, what exactly is it expanding into? And what if time turns out to be an artifact of our universe's specific nature (time, space, matter, energy)? Can the concept of "infinite" have any meaning without a corresponding concept of time? Perhaps time itself came into existent at the moment of the big bang?

    So many things we do not know - which is why I tend to prefer "I don't know." (yet )
    Items 2,3 and 4 are all included under "a self existent Universe (in whatever form)"-I love the way that is stated by the way-thus there are still only two possibilities.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Items 2,3 and 4 are all included under "a self existent Universe (in whatever form)"-I love the way that is stated by the way-thus there are still only two possibilities.
    You're using the term "universe" in the way we initially discussed: everything that exists, so your list would have two items on it.

    I'm using the term specifically to refer to the matter/energy/space/time we experience, allowing for the possibility of things OTHER than this universe, hence the four items. As far as I know, modern physics does not preclude the possibility of existence separate from the known universe.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

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    tWebber 37818's Avatar
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    An uncaused universe requires an uncaused existence. Such a universe would include caused beginnings. Where there would be no first caused beginnings. Caused beginnings are not uncaused. So in really what would be actually uncaused is the uncaused existence as a main constituent of an uncaused universe.
    . . . the Gospel of Christ, for it is [the] power of God to salvation to every [one] believing, . . . -- Romans 1:16.

    . . . that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: . . . -- 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4.

    Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: . . . -- 1 John 5:1.

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