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Thread: New member question about philosophy

  1. #21
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 37818 View Post
    An uncaused universe requires an uncaused existence. Such a universe would include caused beginnings. Where there would be no first caused beginnings. Caused beginnings are not uncaused. So in really what would be actually uncaused is the uncaused existence as a main constituent of an uncaused universe.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

  2. Amen Jedidiah, shunyadragon, Charles amen'd this post.
  3. #22
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    just because.

  4. #23
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    You're using the term "universe" in the way we initially discussed: everything that exists, so your list would have two items on it.

    I'm using the term specifically to refer to the matter/energy/space/time we experience, allowing for the possibility of things OTHER than this universe, hence the four items. As far as I know, modern physics does not preclude the possibility of existence separate from the known universe.
    I think Machinist was using it as I was. He will correct me if I am wrong, I expect.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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    "Uncaused existence is indeed self existent being existence. But the universe is more than existence - it being understood to be everything - and not everything is uncaused."

    "An uncaused universe requires an uncaused existence. Such a universe would include caused beginnings. Where there would be no first caused beginnings. Caused beginnings are not uncaused. So in really what would be actually uncaused is the uncaused existence as a main constituent of an uncaused universe"



    Bear with me. I am pondering these enigmatic statements.

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    This universe, other universes, all matter, light, energy, etc. that exists in any continuum is included.

  7. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  8. #26
    tWebber carpedm9587's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    This universe, other universes, all matter, light, energy, etc. that exists in any continuum is included.
    Then you are using the term "universe" more loosely than I would - and aligned with Jedidiah's use of it. So, to his point, your two alternatives are basically it, AFAICT.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

    -Martin Luther King

  9. #27
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    So something, rather than nothing exists, is self existent and is uncaused.
    I’d say either an infinite regression of causes exists, or something exists (or has existed) uncaused and self-existent. I couldn’t say without hearing further argumentation whether that self-existent something still exists or whether it has ceased to exist.

    The idea that a self existent God, or a self existent Universe (in whatever form), as illogical as it may be, by necessity must be.
    Like Carpe I wouldn't use universe in that way. But even then, it depends on what you mean by necessity. Not dependent on something? Then yes. But if you mean ‘cannot not exist’, then how do we know that? How do we know a self existent thing cannot exist as, say, a brute fact?

  10. #28
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    I do wish Machinist would come back an deal with this thread. I wish I could get in touch with him.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  11. #29
    tWebber shunyadragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machinist View Post
    This universe, other universes, all matter, light, energy, etc. that exists in any continuum is included.
    uncaused existence = uncaused universe
    Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
    Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
    But will they come when you do call for them? Shakespeare’s Henry IV, Part 1, Act III:

    go with the flow the river knows . . .

    Frank

    I do not know, therefore everything is in pencil.

  12. #30
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shunyadragon View Post
    uncaused existence = uncaused universe
    Why would you say that since you believe that God is the cause of the universe.
    Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

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