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The future of automobiles

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  • The future of automobiles

    I have been thinking (yeah a scary thing)...

    People are worried about oil shortages and the energy crisis from lack of fossil fuels running out and think that Electric Vehicles (EVs) are the solution.

    But the batteries and motors used in EVs all depend on rare elements: Lithium, Cobalt, Neodymium and Praseodymium. Once EVs become the standard vehicles on the road, we are going to be facing more and more shortages of the supply of these elements.

    Are we just exchanging one shortage for another? Instead of the middle east controlling the oil are we going to have some other country (like China) controlling the energy supply?


  • #2
    Solar power would be too inefficient, right? Except in fiction.
    If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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    • #3
      Nuclear power cpuld be usefull in the powering of cities, but it wpuld be too dangerous to use in vehicles.
      sigpic

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      • #4
        Yeah, especially considering what would happen in a car accident. And there's a finite amount of radioactive material also. Ignoring the safety and waste issues, there's also the cost.
        If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
          Solar power would be too inefficient, right? Except in fiction.
          Solar cells themselves require rare elements and would still require charging Lithium-Ion Batteries which use rare elements and the electric motors also would still use rare earth magnets.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by TheWall View Post
            Nuclear power cpuld be usefull in the powering of cities, but it wpuld be too dangerous to use in vehicles.
            It's not about how we make the electricity, it is about how we use the electricity. No matter the source of the electricity it still will have to power electric motors and will have to be stored in batteries. That is what is using the rare elements. The batteries and the motors. Sure we can recycle some of it but when the demand for electric vehicles is up there where gas powered ones are now, we are going to have a problem making that many batteries and motors.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Solar cells themselves require rare elements and would still require charging Lithium-Ion Batteries which use rare elements and the electric motors also would still use rare earth magnets.
              That too. I didn't think they would work period. Not enough surface area.

              Maybe our Brother will return before we use up all the resources? Don't count on it, though.
              If it weren't for the Resurrection of Jesus, we'd all be in DEEP TROUBLE!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I have been thinking (yeah a scary thing)...

                People are worried about oil shortages and the energy crisis from lack of fossil fuels running out and think that Electric Vehicles (EVs) are the solution.

                But the batteries and motors used in EVs all depend on rare elements: Lithium, Cobalt, Neodymium and Praseodymium. Once EVs become the standard vehicles on the road, we are going to be facing more and more shortages of the supply of these elements.

                Are we just exchanging one shortage for another? Instead of the middle east controlling the oil are we going to have some other country (like China) controlling the energy supply?
                A few random thoughts on this.

                Lithium isn't especially rare; other elements are more likely to be bottlenecks. That's fortunate, in that the other elements go into things like electrodes where there are alternative technologies available. That may end up meaning we can't mass produce only a single battery design, which can create its own issues. But it also means our ability to make lithium batteries isn't as constrained as it might be. We're also using lithium now for use cases where non-lithium batteries would work just as well or better - vanadium-based flow batteries are considered to be one of the better options for on-grid storage, for example (i can describe that tech if people care), but Tesla's just using lithium for everything.

                As for supply, these elements are pretty broadly distributed. It's almost certainly most economical to get them in China at the moment, given the relatively cheap labor and low environmental standards. But if China causes supply problems, other sources can be developed. But it would be a good idea to get a good battery recycling chain in place sooner rather than later.

                Another cause for optimism is that we're regularly improving batteries, so we get expanded storage from the same amount of materials. Just think of how light your cellphone is, and consider how that means there's very little stuff involved in a pretty impressive battery.

                Overall, i don't think that batteries need to pose a huge problem for the expansion of electric vehicles in the near future. But making sure that's not the case requires careful planning, and we tend to be terrible at that. So i expect there will be some spasms and crises that slow things down at various points.


                Originally posted by Christianbookworm View Post
                Solar power would be too inefficient, right? Except in fiction.
                You mean power the car with solar panels on the roof? It works, but the cars are wildly impractical for anything but tech demos - they fit only one person, the driver, who has to lie down to fit in the car's aerodynamic shape.
                "Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling."

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                  But the batteries and motors used in EVs all depend on rare elements: Lithium, Cobalt, Neodymium and Praseodymium. Once EVs become the standard vehicles on the road, we are going to be facing more and more shortages of the supply of these elements.
                  Not only that but mining of these elements is very destructive to the planet (China is a big supplier because they don't have laws against strip-mining), and toxic sludge is produced during the manufacture and eventual disposal of the batteries. And finally, we're going to need to beef up our electricity infrastructure (meaning more power plants) to handle the increased demand when a substantial number of people start plugging their cars in at night. It's the environmentalists' dilemma.
                  Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                  But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                  Than a fool in the eyes of God


                  From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TheLurch View Post
                    A few random thoughts on this.

                    Lithium isn't especially rare; other elements are more likely to be bottlenecks. That's fortunate, in that the other elements go into things like electrodes where there are alternative technologies available. That may end up meaning we can't mass produce only a single battery design, which can create its own issues. But it also means our ability to make lithium batteries isn't as constrained as it might be. We're also using lithium now for use cases where non-lithium batteries would work just as well or better - vanadium-based flow batteries are considered to be one of the better options for on-grid storage, for example (i can describe that tech if people care), but Tesla's just using lithium for everything.

                    As for supply, these elements are pretty broadly distributed. It's almost certainly most economical to get them in China at the moment, given the relatively cheap labor and low environmental standards. But if China causes supply problems, other sources can be developed. But it would be a good idea to get a good battery recycling chain in place sooner rather than later.

                    Another cause for optimism is that we're regularly improving batteries, so we get expanded storage from the same amount of materials. Just think of how light your cellphone is, and consider how that means there's very little stuff involved in a pretty impressive battery.

                    Overall, i don't think that batteries need to pose a huge problem for the expansion of electric vehicles in the near future. But making sure that's not the case requires careful planning, and we tend to be terrible at that. So i expect there will be some spasms and crises that slow things down at various points.



                    You mean power the car with solar panels on the roof? It works, but the cars are wildly impractical for anything but tech demos - they fit only one person, the driver, who has to lie down to fit in the car's aerodynamic shape.
                    Interestingly, there are firms exploring electric airplanes. One big problem right now is that even the best batteries are quite heavy relative to the same amount of energy in fuel. The link below gives current battery technologies as about 1/40th the energy density of jet fuel. Electric Motors are more efficient than the various flight power plants, but that still leaves a significant gap.

                    https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/e...aft/index.html

                    https://www.popularmechanics.com/fli...ane-fly-2020s/

                    Boeing, Airbus and a slew of smaller firms developing everything from full on airliners to automated air taxis to personal craft like a police air motorcycle or just ones own personal drone-like vehicle.

                    https://newatlas.com/airspacex-mobi-one-detroit/52985/

                    https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/8/16...-uber-ces-2018

                    https://mashable.com/2018/02/01/evto.../#QH.SYoolTqqt

                    https://www.theverge.com/2017/4/20/1...viation-munich

                    https://cleantechnica.com/2017/03/24...cars-overview/


                    Jim
                    My brethren, do not hold your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ with an attitude of personal favoritism. James 2:1

                    If anyone thinks himself to be religious, and yet does not  bridle his tongue but deceives his own heart, this man’s religion is worthless James 1:26

                    This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger; James 1:19

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                    • #11
                      I think some sort of fuel cell technology will be the best weight to power ratio for storing electrical energy (well producing it) rather than heavy batteries.

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                      • #12
                        There are still steam based technologies for cars. As well as powering automobiles from methane and other gases.
                        "Obama is not a brown-skinned, anti-war socialist who gives away free healthcare. You are thinking of Jesus." Episcopal Bishop of Arizona

                        I remember WinAce. Gone but not forgotten.

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                        • #13
                          here is something interesting: A "proton" battery that uses carbon instead of lithium.

                          Source: https://www.rmit.edu.au/news/all-news/2018/mar/all-power-to-the-proton



                          All power to the proton: researchers make battery breakthrough

                          RMIT University researchers have demonstrated for the first time a working rechargeable “proton battery” that could re-wire how we power our homes, vehicles and devices.

                          The rechargeable battery is environmentally friendly, and has the potential, with further development, to store more energy than currently-available lithium ion batteries.

                          Potential applications for the proton battery include household storage of electricity from solar photovoltaic panels, as done currently by the Tesla 'Power wall' which uses lithium ion batteries.

                          With some modifications and scaling up, proton battery technology may also be used for medium-scale storage on electricity grids - - like the giant lithium battery in South Australia -- as well as powering electric vehicles.

                          The working prototype proton battery uses a carbon electrode as a hydrogen store, coupled with a reversible fuel cell to produce electricity.

                          It’s the carbon electrode plus protons from water that give the proton battery it’s environmental, energy and potential economic edge, says lead researcher Professor John Andrews.
                          ...
                          “Carbon, which is the primary resource used in our proton battery, is abundant and cheap compared to both metal hydrogen-storage alloys, and the lithium needed for rechargeable lithium ion batteries.”

                          During charging, the carbon in the electrode bonds with protons generated by splitting water with the help of electrons from the power supply. The protons are released again and pass back through the reversible fuel cell to form water with oxygen from air to generate power. Unlike fossil fuels, the carbon does not burn or cause emissions in the process.

                          The researchers’ experiments showed that their small proton battery, with an active inside surface area of only 5.5 square centimetres (smaller than a 20 cent coin), was already able to store as much energy per unit mass as commercially-available lithium ion batteries. This was before the battery had been optimised.

                          © Copyright Original Source


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