An infinite series of finite causes.

[Tassman]

You are just being dishonest now Tass, you clearly said that "all gods are a human constructs and do not have an independent reality." That is a claim you can not backup.

Of course I can. My claim is that gods are the result of a social construct. Social constructs exist; they are a real component of the social sciences.

And BTW there is no substantive evidence for past eternal matter or energy, yet I suspect that you believe it nonetheless.

That’s a matter for the physical sciences to determine and it remains a work in progress...like much of science. So I don’t believe it or disbelieve it at this stage, unlike you who doesn’t believe it for theological reasons which are totally unrelated to science. But this has nothing to do with social constructs.

[JimL]

That is a claim you can not backup. And BTW there is no substantive evidence for past eternal matter or energy, yet I suspect that you believe it nonetheless.

Actually there is evidence seer, there is evidence that nothing comes from nothing. It isn't proof, but it is evidence, and it is more evidence than we have for the existence of a god who creates energy/matter out of nothing.

[seer]

Of course I can. My claim is that gods are the result of a social construct. Social constructs exist; they are a real component of the social sciences.

Of course social constructs exist, that does not prove that all gods are a human constructs and do not have an independent reality. You are just making that up and you can not demonstrate that that is a fact.

That’s a matter for the physical sciences to determine and it remains a work in progress...like much of science. So I don’t believe it or disbelieve it at this stage, unlike you who doesn’t believe it for theological reasons which are totally unrelated to science. But this has nothing to do with social constructs.

But your statement about "all gods" is unrelated to science too. If you think otherwise then show us scientifically.

[Tassman]

Of course social constructs exist, that does not prove that all gods are a human constructs and do not have an independent reality. You are just making that up and you can not demonstrate that that is a fact.

There is no good reason to exclude particular gods from being social constructs without independent reality. Obviously, all gods have had their adherents at some time or other, but that doesn’t give them an independent reality.

But your statement about "all gods" is unrelated to science too. If you think otherwise then show us scientifically.

Correct. ‘Social constructs’ belong in the realm of the ‘social sciences’, not ‘physical science’. Questions regarding the workings of the natural universe, such as its possible past eternal nature, belong to the latter.

[seer]

There is no good reason to exclude particular gods from being social constructs without independent reality. Obviously, all gods have had their adherents at some time or other, but that doesn’t give them an independent reality.

But again you can not demonstrate that all gods are merely human constructs or that none of them have independent reality. You are just making sweeping generalizations with no factual back up - besides your personal opinion.

Correct. ‘Social constructs’ belong in the realm of the ‘social sciences’, not ‘physical science’. Questions regarding the workings of the natural universe, such as its possible past eternal nature, belong to the latter.

But there is no evidence for past eternal matter and energy, nor do you have evidence that all gods are merely human constructs.

[shunyadragon]

But there is no evidence for past eternal matter and energy, nor do you have evidence that all gods are merely human constructs.

Arguing from ignorance gets you nowhere. There is no evidence for an absolute beginning of anything. Science cannot falsify the negative. It is possible that matter and energy are eternal.

Even though I 'believe' in God, there is not objective verifiable evidence for the existence of any Gods.

[seer]

Arguing from ignorance gets you nowhere. There is no evidence for an absolute beginning of anything. Science cannot falsify the negative. It is possible that matter and energy are eternal.

What we do have evidence for Shuny is this universe, and that this universe is finite. That it began with the hot big bang. There is zero evidence that matter and energy are past eternal, even though your religion teaches that and you need to defend your religion.

Even though I 'believe' in God, there is not objective verifiable evidence for the existence of any Gods.

But your own religion teaches that the very universe points to a creator, that we see his attributes in creation. Do I need to again quote from Bahá'í writings? http://bahaiteachings.org/signs-gods...-natural-world


And BTW there is no objective verifiable evidence that all gods are merely human constructs.

[Tassman]

But again you can not demonstrate that all gods are merely human constructs or that none of them have independent reality.

You cannot demonstrate that gods are NOT human constructs. There are many thousands of gods throughout human history; there is no substantive reason to think any of them had an independent reality.

You are just making sweeping generalizations with no factual back up - besides your personal opinion.

The “fact” is that human constructs exist.

But there is no evidence for past eternal matter and energy, nor do you have evidence that all gods are merely human constructs.

We know that from your perspective the universe is not eternal, that it had a beginning and that the beginning was its creation by God. There is no substantiated evidence supporting this assertion. As far as science is concerned it is still an open question.

[element771]

As far as science is concerned it is still an open question.

Funny ... I hear the same thing from people who don’t like what the data indicates about evolution, global warming, vaccines, and many other topics.

[Tassman]

Funny ... I hear the same thing from people who don’t like what the data indicates about evolution, global warming, vaccines, and many other topics.

The topics you mention are based upon established science; the physics of a past eternal universe, multiverse etc are cutting-edge science which currently remain an open question.

[seer]

You cannot demonstrate that gods are NOT human constructs. There are many thousands of gods throughout human history; there is no substantive reason to think any of them had an independent reality.

Hey bonehead, you made the claim that all gods were human constructs that no god has an independent reality. A claim you can not back up - just admit that you were talking out your butt again.

The “fact” is that human constructs exist.

How does that back up your claim? Lead us all through the logic...

We know that from your perspective the universe is not eternal, that it had a beginning and that the beginning was its creation by God. There is no substantiated evidence supporting this assertion. As far as science is concerned it is still an open question.

What is your point? The fact is this universe is finite, it had a beginning, and there is no evidence that matter or energy existed before this universe, or that if it did that it is past eternal.

[element771]

The topics you mention are based upon established science; the physics of a past eternal universe, multiverse etc are cutting-edge science which currently remain an open question.

Funny...they often say the same thing when you challenge them on the existing data.

[Tassman]

Funny...they often say the same thing when you challenge them on the existing data.

They may say the same thing, but they’d be wrong. Things like Evolution and Climate Change are settled science. They’re queried pretty well exclusively on religious grounds, not scientific grounds...unless you want to call Creation Science a genuine scientific discipline.

[element771]

They may say the same thing, but they’d be wrong. Things like Evolution and Climate Change are settled science. They’re queried pretty well exclusively on religious grounds, not scientific grounds...unless you want to call Creation Science a genuine scientific discipline.

Settled science...what is that?

I need to go tell the evolutionary biologist in my department his research is already settled.

Bottom line is that you don’t accept current views on certain scientific topics because of your metaphysical worldview... just like they don’t.

The parallels between you and other science deniers speak volumes. Accept the data you like, discard the rest.

[Tassman]

Hey bonehead, you made the claim that all gods were human constructs that no god has an independent reality. A claim you can not back up - just admit that you were talking out your butt again.

I said the idea of gods is a human construct. I can certainly back up this claim. What you can’t “back up” is your notion that gods are anything more than human constructs.

How does that back up your claim? Lead us all through the logic...

What are you querying? Human Constructs are defined as the “social construction of reality as a theory of knowledge in sociology and communication theory, that examines the development of jointly constructed understandings of the world that form the basis for shared assumptions about reality” - cited Wiki. The existence of human constructs is not in question.

What is your point? The fact is this universe is finite, it had a beginning, and there is no evidence that matter or energy existed before this universe, or that if it did that it is past eternal.

We don’t know that because it is at present an open question in science with many different hypotheses under consideration, e.g. Stephen Hawking's "no boundary" model posits that our universe is just one of infinitely many parallel universes.

The fact that an infinite, eternal universe contradicts your religious belief that the universe had a beginning and was created by God is irrelevant.