Announcement

Collapse

General Theistics 101 Guidelines

This area is open for nontheists and theists to interact on issues of theism and faith in a civilized manner. We ask that nontheist participation respect the theistic views of others and not seek to undermine theism in general, or advocate for nontheism. Such posts are more suited for and allowable in Apologetics 301 with very little restriction.

The moderators of this area are given great discretion to determine if a particular thread or comment would more appropriately belong in another forum area.

Forum Rules: Here
See more
See less

Opinions on Billy Graham

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #76
    Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
    It is all about not putting yourself in any position where salacious gossip can take root. About being, as close as humanly possible, unquestionably above reproach.

    That's why he was adamant about having his crusades publicly audited so there was no whiff of scandal. And what I would say is behind the Graham Rule as well.
    There is a far cry between having all of the crusades audited - which is a sound financial policy to ensure that donated money is not being syphoned off by anyone, and especially in this age of corrupt and self-serving evangelists - and adopting a policy that treats everyone around you (but especially the women) as untrustworthy and a possible/probable sexual object. They are not even in the same ballpark.

    And with that - I don't think repeating myself further is going to get anywhere. So I'll let you folks close it out and I'll practice my "I'm going to shut up now" skill!
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      You're wrong. It's not discriminatory nor unjust. It's used by both men and women in ministry towards the opposite sex. It's not based on a spirit of fear, it's based on being wise as serpents and innocent as doves. It isn't treating all women as pariahs, it's offering people the respect they deserve, and making it known that you expect the same back. You've twisted the whole thing in your head the opposite of what it was intended for. It's not a sad commentary on our society, it's acknowledging that people are sinful by nature, and that accountability should be in place as it is in so many other places within and without the church. You're calling something that's good, evil, and you're completely off base in your accusations that it's says something negative about a church's belief in the confidence or respect of their fellow human beings. You're just wrong, carpedm, and that's it.
      He rejects the underlined, and anything remotely like it. I think that is the root of the issue. In a world where people are sinful by nature, it just makes sense. In one where something like sin simply doesn't exist, it just makes everyone look bad. Since he's looking at things through the latter lens, it just makes everyone look bad.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        I cannot possibly see how.

        1 Thessalonians 5:22 (KJV)

        22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          Please don't dishonor my wife by perverting what I said about her, or my marriage to her....
          I did not talk smack about your marriage, CP. Frankly, when I wrote, I had missed the "part of why" and was responding mostly in terms of this being a major cause of 42 years. I would consider any marriage for which that is true to be very dysfunctional. The "part of" makes a difference...a little.

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          That's what I said. I won't talk smack about your marriage, and you do likewise about mine.
          CP, if I tell you that my wife and I regularly swap partners with our neighbors, would you praise me - keep silent - and make it clear that you did not find that kind of behavior moral or acceptable? I find this rule very disagreeable (I deleted "repulsive."). I think it objectifies people and shows an incredible degree of distrust. I don't care what role I am in, if my wife were ever to suggest that I should be sure to have someone else with me if I am ever in the presence of another woman or man, I would politely tell her she may have married the wrong man. I would never do that to others, just to protect myself or even just to make her comfortable. The entire thing breaches trust six ways to Sunday, IMO.

          And yes, I broke my "last word" (again), because I was concerned that you thought my comment was about your marriage. It's about the rule, and it's impact on people.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
            He rejects the underlined, and anything remotely like it. I think that is the root of the issue. In a world where people are sinful by nature, it just makes sense. In one where something like sin simply doesn't exist, it just makes everyone look bad. Since he's looking at things through the latter lens, it just makes everyone look bad.
            OK - so much for "shutting up"

            Yes - I think that is a marvelous insight. I do not accept the "sinful nature" theme of Christianity. So my perspective on this is going to be necessarily different. And it's not just about "looking bad." It's about objectification - treating other people like objects.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
              He rejects the underlined, and anything remotely like it. I think that is the root of the issue. In a world where people are sinful by nature, it just makes sense. In one where something like sin simply doesn't exist, it just makes everyone look bad. Since he's looking at things through the latter lens, it just makes everyone look bad.
              You may be right, but it's living in complete denial of how the world operates in real life every day. You only just need to be alive to know that people aren't perfect, that some people are going to take advantage of situations that they shouldn't, or that some people are going to confuse agape and philia with eros. Reading his replies I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                OK - so much for "shutting up"

                Yes - I think that is a marvelous insight. I do not accept the "sinful nature" theme of Christianity. So my perspective on this is going to be necessarily different. And it's not just about "looking bad." It's about objectification - treating other people like objects.
                The "just makes everyone look bad" was more of a general statement about how a "sinful nature" makes everyone seem, rather than a comment on rejection of this particular rule/topic.

                I probably didn't make that clear. I try to be clear in my posts, but I often fail.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                  And yes, I broke my "last word" (again), because I was concerned that you thought my comment was about your marriage. It's about the rule, and it's impact on people.
                  You honestly need to stop telling people you're going to stop talking about a subject. You never follow through with it, so it comes off as though what you really mean is that you want the conversation to be done with, and that you want your word to be the last word, and that you only say that you'll give others the last word if their last word isn't stronger than your argument.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    I did not talk smack about your marriage, CP. Frankly, when I wrote, I had missed the "part of why" and was responding mostly in terms of this being a major cause of 42 years. I would consider any marriage for which that is true to be very dysfunctional. The "part of" makes a difference...a little.
                    It makes a whole world of difference. Again, you're entitled to be wrong -- even woefully.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      You may be right, but it's living in complete denial of how the world operates in real life every day. You only just need to be alive to know that people aren't perfect, that some people are going to take advantage of situations that they shouldn't, or that some people are going to confuse agape and philia with eros. Reading his replies I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
                      I agree. I do however think that bringing the disconnects like this to the fore can help the discussion to be more fruitful. If neither side can see a certain disconnect, then you just end up talking past each other.

                      About the underlined bit, he does seem a bit like a non-theistic version of robrecht if you ask me.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        You may be right, but it's living in complete denial of how the world operates in real life every day. You only just need to be alive to know that people aren't perfect, that some people are going to take advantage of situations that they shouldn't, or that some people are going to confuse agape and philia with eros. Reading his replies I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.
                        I'm to the point where, if I wasn't a Christian, I'd probably be a straight-up nihilist and a misanthrope. (I might be those things anyway)

                        People suck. The varieties of our screwed-up-ness are never-ending.
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                          I agree. I do however think that bringing the disconnects like this to the fore can help the discussion to be more fruitful. If neither side can see a certain disconnect, then you just end up talking past each other.

                          About the underlined bit, he does seem a bit like a non-theistic version of robrecht if you ask me.
                          For as irritating as he could be, I found robrecht far more...I don't know...rational? And maybe emotionless? I hate to say it, but carpe is not the person I remember him being 10 years ago. At all. But I'm certain the same could be said of me.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                            I'm to the point where, if I wasn't a Christian, I'd probably be a straight-up nihilist and a misanthrope. (I might be those things anyway)

                            People suck. The varieties of our screwed-up-ness are never-ending.
                            Oh, I have hope in humanity, and I'm certainly no pessimist (though I might choose nihilism for other reasons), but pretending that life is all unicorns and rainbows isn't living in reality. Realizing that people are flawed means that it's wise to have accountability. Demonstrating that you have respect for others, and that you can be held accountable is about as far away from objectification as you can get. It takes some pretty perverse thinking to get out of this rule some semblance of objectification. I mean, who thinks like that? It's so weird.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Cerebrum123 View Post
                              The "just makes everyone look bad" was more of a general statement about how a "sinful nature" makes everyone seem, rather than a comment on rejection of this particular rule/topic.

                              I probably didn't make that clear. I try to be clear in my posts, but I often fail.
                              Unlike me - who am prefectly clear with all uddered wurds!
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                                You honestly need to stop telling people you're going to stop talking about a subject. You never follow through with it, so it comes off as though what you really mean is that you want the conversation to be done with, and that you want your word to be the last word, and that you only say that you'll give others the last word if their last word isn't stronger than your argument.
                                Actually - I do follow through with it - about 60% of the time.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

                                widgetinstance 221 (Related Threads) skipped due to lack of content & hide_module_if_empty option.
                                Working...
                                X