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Opinions on Billy Graham

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  • Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
    I'm admittedly young and inexperienced with my mere 27 years, but if life has taught me anything it's that "Morally debased and corrupt" is a much more accurate description of human beings in general than "imperfect", or even "deeply flawed". Pretty much everyone does things almost entirely out of self-serving reasons, even when the act itself would be considered "good", or "selfless" from a moral perspective.
    Yet the Bible teaches that even unbelievers have the law written in their hearts, and that their consciousness occasionally bear witness to that fact. So while sin does have corrupting influence, there is still something there. As Ben Witherington puts it, "So Paul assumes that sometimes some Gentiles fulfill some of the requirements of the Law, just as Jews do. This does not mean they always do so, or do so perfectly, for Paul will go on to call all sinners. It does mean that there is some obedience to the will or Law of God among those who are not Christians, with Gentiles in focus here." - Paul's Letter to the Romans: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      The vast majority of Christians that I've encountered within my life (and certainly on this forum) would completely reject your second definition of "sinful nature". In fact, as far as I know, probably only the most extreme Calvinists, and perhaps a few way out there cultists like the Westboro church hold something like what you're suggesting. […] [par. 1]
      Originally posted by Chrawnus View Post
      I'm admittedly young and inexperienced with my mere 27 years, but if life has taught me anything it's that "Morally debased and corrupt" is a much more accurate description of human beings in general than "imperfect", or even "deeply flawed". Pretty much everyone does things almost entirely out of self-serving reasons, even when the act itself would be considered "good", or "selfless" from a moral perspective.
      Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      Yet the Bible teaches that even unbelievers have the law written in their hearts, and that their consciousness occasionally bear witness to that fact. So while sin does have corrupting influence, there is still something there. As Ben Witherington puts it, "So Paul assumes that sometimes some Gentiles fulfill some of the requirements of the Law, just as Jews do. This does not mean they always do so, or do so perfectly, for Paul will go on to call all sinners. It does mean that there is some obedience to the will or Law of God among those who are not Christians, with Gentiles in focus here." - Paul's Letter to the Romans: A Socio-Rhetorical Commentary
      As obvious as such an observation might be, it is worth taking into account the reality that not all humans are equally immoral or depraved. Sanctification and depravity exist on a spectrum. Some of God’s children are further along in their walk with Christ, and hence more mature and holy in their thoughts, attitudes, speech, and actions. What this means is simply that some Christians are more Christ-like than others. This concept is often referred to as progressive sanctification in Protestant/evangelical spheres.

      Similarly, as children of the devil vary in their moral corruption and likeness to the spiritual father whom they emulate (wittingly or unwittingly), the tendency of evil to advance collectively and individually may be labelled progressive degeneration or progressive depravity. The scriptural account that best encapsulates this concept can be seen in the narrative of Genesis 6 where, with the exception of Noah and his family, humankind as whole had become spiritually and morally unsalvageable.*


      * See also Matthew 24.36–39; Luke 17.26–27; 1 Peter 3.19–22; 2 Peter 2.5; 3.5–7.
      For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

      Comment


      • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        So what was your interpretation of the post?
        I actually think it's much more interesting to watch you tell him what he really meant.
        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post

          And with that - I'll sign off from this discussion. It has essentially become a string of ad homs with no content - so I see no purpose in continuing. Frankly, this time I won't be reading subsequent posts either. So have at it.
          Will you PLEASE stop doing that? Adrift is right. This is just an idiotic debate tactic to pretend to take the "high road" and act like you are the better person for walking away, when in fact it is because you don't have an actual rebuttal, and think by saying this you can end the discussion. Yet when people do take the "last word" you immediately jump right back into the fray.

          Just stop it.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
            I actually think it's much more interesting to watch you tell him what he really meant.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
              Will you PLEASE stop doing that? Adrift is right. This is just an idiotic debate tactic to pretend to take the "high road" and act like you are the better person for walking away, when in fact it is because you don't have an actual rebuttal, and think by saying this you can end the discussion. Yet when people do take the "last word" you immediately jump right back into the fray.

              Just stop it.
              Time again for....

              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                Time again for....

                did that pages ago when he promised he was leaving then...

                http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post520447

                Comment


                • Originally posted by lao tzu View Post
                  Bartender? Times two, please.

                  ETA: Fourth time through, it finally parsed.
                  I will not post what I was going to.

                  You said what I was trying to say with more grace than I was going to.

                  Thank you.

                  The original was far more amusing.
                  drat note to self never post when you have not had your first cup of tea.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                    did that pages ago when he promised he was leaving then...

                    http://www.theologyweb.com/campus/sh...l=1#post520447
                    I knew you had done it recently, but....
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I knew you had done it recently, but....
                      ...and now he went and started ANOTHER thread on banning guns!

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                        ...and now he went and started ANOTHER thread on banning guns!
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                          ...and now he went and started ANOTHER thread on banning guns!
                          well maybe he thought we'd derailed this one enough.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                            As obvious as such an observation might be, it is worth taking into account the reality that not all humans are equally immoral or depraved. Sanctification and depravity exist on a spectrum. Some of God’s children are further along in their walk with Christ, and hence more mature and holy in their thoughts, attitudes, speech, and actions. What this means is simply that some Christians are more Christ-like than others. This concept is often referred to as progressive sanctification in Protestant/evangelical spheres.

                            Similarly, as children of the devil vary in their moral corruption and likeness to the spiritual father whom they emulate (wittingly or unwittingly), the tendency of evil to advance collectively and individually may be labelled progressive degeneration or progressive depravity. The scriptural account that best encapsulates this concept can be seen in the narrative of Genesis 6 where, with the exception of Noah and his family, humankind as whole had become spiritually and morally unsalvageable.*


                            * See also Matthew 24.36–39; Luke 17.26–27; 1 Peter 3.19–22; 2 Peter 2.5; 3.5–7.
                            And perhaps the fact that some people are what we consider to be morally better than others has nothing to do with christ or religion at all.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by JimL View Post
                              And perhaps the fact that some people are what we consider to be morally better than others has nothing to do with [C]hrist or religion at all.
                              Christians and non-Christians alike can fail to assess themselves accurately and have an inaccurate, inflated opinion of their actual moral condition. Self-righteousness is a common manifestation of pride. As gross of a sin as it is, even saints are not exempt from falling into this snare. Scripture unambiguously declares that God resists proud persons but grants grace to those who are humble.*

                              The most sanctified persons have been changed by the grace of God. They recognise their great need for a redeemer. Those who are consciously rejecting Jesus Christ and his claim as Lord and Saviour will be left to stand without a mediator between them and God on Judgement Day. The criterion for a positive outcome is a lifetime of flawless obedience to the law of God. How do you believe that you will fare? The standard for morality is set by God, not humankind. Your only hope is that the God you currently reject does not exist. I hope better things for you.


                              * See Proverbs 3.34 LXX; James 4.6; 1 Peter 5.5.
                              For Neo-Remonstration (Arminian/Remonstrant ruminations): <https://theremonstrant.blogspot.com>

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Remonstrant View Post
                                Christians and non-Christians alike can fail to assess themselves accurately and have an inaccurate, inflated opinion of their actual moral condition. Self-righteousness is a common manifestation of pride. As gross of a sin as it is, even saints are not exempt from falling into this snare. Scripture unambiguously declares that God resists proud persons but grants grace to those who are humble.*

                                The most sanctified persons have been changed by the grace of God. They recognise their great need for a redeemer. Those who are consciously rejecting Jesus Christ and his claim as Lord and Saviour will be left to stand without a mediator between them and God on Judgement Day. The criterion for a positive outcome is a lifetime of flawless obedience to the law of God. How do you believe that you will fare? The standard for morality is set by God, not humankind. Your only hope is that the God you currently reject does not exist. I hope better things for you.


                                * See Proverbs 3.34 LXX; James 4.6; 1 Peter 5.5.
                                And perhaps what we consider to be a persons actual moral condition has nothing to do with christ or religion. If you really stopped to think about it, the premise of your religion, i.e. of sin and redemption for believers, makes no sense. If you think it does make sense, perhaps you could point out the logic in it for us nonbelievers?

                                Comment

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