A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

[carpedm9587]

In the most recent case, the one involving Pagourtzis, it appears this would have been extremely difficult in that it seems there were none of the usual red flags that we've seen with many of the others -- particularly Cruz.

That also does not answer the question.

[Jedidiah]

And what you'll never consider but choose instead to hand wave away:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]27862[/ATTACH]

That gun violence has plummeted from the levels it was at a few decades ago while simultaneously the number of firearms in the hands of the public has skyrocketed. Hard to explain if the availability of guns is the cause of the violence.

Anti gun folks claim to want one thing, but aim at something else - getting rid of guns. Carpe is not the only one who seems blind to information that does not support their goal. I have made one suggestion which has been mostly ignored because it points to increasing individual responsibility, and individuals paying the price for their actions.

[Tassman]

Anti gun folks claim to want one thing, but aim at something else - getting rid of guns. Carpe is not the only one who seems blind to information that does not support their goal. I have made one suggestion which has been mostly ignored because it points to increasing individual responsibility, and individuals paying the price for their actions.

I would have thought "getting rid of guns" is a worthwhile objective. Australia has virtually none in private hands and hasn't had a mass shooting for decades. OTOH gun violence in the US results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually. "Compared to 22 other high-income nations, the U.S. gun-related murder rate is 25 times higher." - cited Wiki.

[carpedm9587]

Anti gun folks claim to want one thing, but aim at something else - getting rid of guns. Carpe is not the only one who seems blind to information that does not support their goal. I have made one suggestion which has been mostly ignored because it points to increasing individual responsibility, and individuals paying the price for their actions.

Not getting rid of guns - but I now DO want ownership of guns to be treated as a privilege to be earned, not a right to be defended. People with psychological issues will have difficulty earning that privilege. Coupled with significant consequence (as was suggested) for those who use a gun in the commission of a crime, and punishment those who own guns that are used in a crime or suicide if it can be shown they have not adequately safeguarded them, we might actually make a dent in the significant death rate.

[rogue06]

Not getting rid of guns - but I now DO want ownership of guns to be treated as a privilege to be earned

Do you have a similar view of speech? The press? Religion? How about not being routinely searched on a whim? Are these privileges as well in your mind?

[carpedm9587]

Do you have a similar view of speech?

No

The press?

No

Religion?

No

How about not being routinely searched on a whim?

No

Are these privileges as well in your mind?

No

[rogue06]

Double standard much?

[Littlejoe]

I would have thought "getting rid of guns" is a worthwhile objective. Australia has virtually none in private hands and hasn't had a mass shooting for decades.

This oft cited "fact" is 100% false. I already posted this in another thread to answer this objection...maybe you missed it?

Australia is often hailed as an example to how effective the gun ban has been. And the facts bear out that mass SHOOTINGS have decreased by quite a lot. Using the figures from this Wikipedia article (I did not fact check all of it) 21 years prior to the ban there were 117 total mass killings (1975 - 1996). Of those, 112 were mass shootings.

In the 21 years (plus a couple of months) since the gun ban, (1996 - Present) there have been 113 mass killings, but only 27 were mass shootings. However, the mass killing rate is statistically flat. How is the gun ban supposed to have helped? As rogue said, are they any less dead because they were not killed with a gun? I would much rather die of a gun shot wound than to die in a fire, burning to death...

There have been 27 people killed in mass shootings since Australia's "Gun Ban. There was a mass shooting in Australia this month (May 11, 2018) in Australia, the worse since the gun ban...

By Giovanni Torre

May 11, 2018
PERTH, Australia — The Western Australia police on Saturday identified seven people, including four children, who were found dead from gunshot wounds the day before in what was the country’s worst mass shooting in more than 20 years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/11/w...ret-river.html

[Charles]

I think this picture says more than many words: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...otings-cartoon

Due to copyright issues, I did not want to put it in my own post, but I agree with the main point that we get the thoughts and prayers from a man who is either unwilling or incapable of understanding reality.

[carpedm9587]

Double standard much?

No

[Tassman]

This oft cited "fact" is 100% false. I already posted this in another thread to answer this objection...maybe you missed it?


There have been 27 people killed in mass shootings since Australia's "Gun Ban. There was a mass shooting in Australia this month (May 11, 2018) in Australia, the worse since the gun ban...

By Giovanni Torre

May 11, 2018
PERTH, Australia — The Western Australia police on Saturday identified seven people, including four children, who were found dead from gunshot wounds the day before in what was the country’s worst mass shooting in more than 20 years.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/11/w...ret-river.html

The Western Australia shooting is shocking, certainly, but your link makes the point that these seven deaths is worst mass shooting in more than 20 years. The Australian gun laws have been successful overall, this is the point.

https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gu...ralia-updated/

OTOH: There have been 101 mass shootings in the US so far in 2018 alone.

http://www.businessinsider.com/how-m...is-year-2018-2

[Roy]

Evil people will find a way to be evil.

...and you are providing a map.

[rogue06]

No

I'm not surprised that you wouldn't think so but keep in mind that words can be far more deadly than any firearm. As Cardinal Richelieu is made to say in Bulwer-Lytton's historical play about him, "The pen is mightier than the sword." This can be demonstrated by what a certain European politician was able to carry out in the middle of the last century largely as a result of a few speeches and a book.

So if you think heavily regulating the possession of firearms in the name of public safety is justified then you are exhibiting a double standard.

[rogue06]

...and you are providing a map.

I think that a stronger argument can be made that violent movies, TV programs and video games provide "a map" to violence than what Sparko said.

[One Bad Pig]

In the most recent case, the one involving Pagourtzis, it appears this would have been extremely difficult in that it seems there were none of the usual red flags that we've seen with many of the others -- particularly Cruz.

There were some. Loner, neo-Nazi, wore trench coats even when a coat wasn't necessary. He apparently had a custom made T-shirt reading, 'born to kill'; he posted a picture of it to FB a couple weeks ago.