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A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

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  • Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    "First let's kill all the lawyers" really does sound like a good idea sometimes.
    It's sad that we live in a world where that phrase sounds (to some) more like a call for mass murder than simple humor.
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
      Ok, so from the "wow" response, I'm taking it that you don't actually have any evidence that "somebody who is planning to go on a killing spree is going to practice." That was just your opinion.
      I think you've missed the point. Anybody can overcome the limits of low-capacity magazines with sufficient practice, meaning that laws limiting magazine sizes are more about making the anti-2nd Amendment crowd feel good than it is about actually finding solutions. How do we know this? Because the common sense solution of allowing those who have the requisite training to carry firearms on school property is decried as morally reprehensible by the left.
      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
      Than a fool in the eyes of God


      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
        I think you've missed the point. Anybody can overcome the limits of low-capacity magazines with sufficient practice, meaning that laws limiting magazine sizes are more about making the anti-2nd Amendment crowd feel good than it is about actually finding solutions. How do we know this? Because the common sense solution of allowing those who have the requisite training to carry firearms on school property is decried as morally reprehensible by the left.
        Ok. Do you have any evidence that would-be mass shooters are generally practiced with low-capacity magazines? That's all I'm asking for.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
          So you do not have any knowledge of the topic. Fine, but even though it has changed somewhat it is still reasonably accurate according to your source - so thanks for the information. Oh, and I am not interested in suicides by gun, only murder by gun. Suicide is a completely separate issue.
          We're less than two months into the year. How old was the source when you pulled it? And while you may not be interested in suicide by gun, gun control advocates are.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
            We're less than two months into the year. How old was the source when you pulled it? And while you may not be interested in suicide by gun, gun control advocates are.
            Does using a firearm to commit suicide make you any more dead?

            Yeah, I know that was a bit facetious but the point I want to make is that while banning guns might have an effect on the number of suicides committed by using a gun it probably won't effect the overall suicide rate. If someone wants to kill themself there are many ways to do it.

            Something I posted on this recently:

            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Gun-related suicides? Maybe. The number of suicides? No.

            As I mentioned to Starlight when he brought that line up...
            Originally posted by Starlight View Post

            Reduction of gun suicides was actually a major motivation behind a tightening of gun control laws here in NZ about a decade ago.

            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post



            It doesn't look like it had much of an effect in the overall suicide rate.

            [ATTACH=CONFIG]26629[/ATTACH]


            I also noticed that New Zealand has the highest suicide rate among adolescents of any developed country. And the suicide rate among 15 to 24 year olds is basically twice the rate we have here in the U.S.



            And then there is Japan, where getting your hands on a firearm is extremely difficult, which has a suicide rate of 15.4 per 100,000[1] as compared to 12.6 for the U.S.

            Belgium, which also has strict gun control laws (which did nothing to stop the terrorists who struck Paris -- and who got their weapons -- including a grenade launcher! -- in Belgium), has a suicide rate of 16.1 per 100,000.

            Other countries with strict gun control laws yet high suicide rates include Poland (regarded as having some of Europe's strictest gun control laws) with a suicide rate of 18.5, Russia (also with strict gun control[2]) with a suicide rate of 17.9, and South Korea (again, a country with strict gun control laws) with a suicide rate of 24.1 (nearly double the U.S.).

            So, to be honest, the gun-suicide card is really little more than a red herring.










            1. The rate used to be much higher but in recent years their government has spent a small fortune trying to reduce it.

            2. And a much higher homicide rate as I explained to JimL yesterday
            Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
            Much stricter than in the U.S. And while the U.S. has something like 10 times more firearms in civilian hands than does Russia the homicide rate here is roughly half of what Russia experiences.
            Attached Files

            I'm always still in trouble again

            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

            Comment


            • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
              Does using a firearm to commit suicide make you any more dead?

              Yeah, I know that was a bit facetious but the point I want to make is that while banning guns might have an effect on the number of suicides committed by using a gun it probably won't effect the overall suicide rate. If someone wants to kill themself there are many ways to do it.

              Something I posted on this recently:
              Apparently gun suicide is pretty high, and it's of course incredibly lethal. Most attempted suicides are a call for help, and less lethal methods of suicide mean that people stay alive long enough to get the help they need. That isn't to say that there aren't other ways to commit lethal suicide, only that gun suicide is a popular option because it's easy to access a gun, and it's a sure way to get dead.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                Ok. Do you have any evidence that would-be mass shooters are generally practiced with low-capacity magazines? That's all I'm asking for.
                You can keep asking, but that's not my point.
                Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                Than a fool in the eyes of God


                From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Apparently gun suicide is pretty high, and it's of course incredibly lethal. Most attempted suicides are a call for help, and less lethal methods of suicide mean that people stay alive long enough to get the help they need. That isn't to say that there aren't other ways to commit lethal suicide, only that gun suicide is a popular option because it's easy to access a gun, and it's a sure way to get dead.
                  Along those lines, when you check somebody else out from a psychiatric hold, they will ask you if there are guns in the house but not about knives and other potential methods.
                  "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                    You can keep asking, but that's not my point.
                    But I don't care about your point. Your point is a no-brainer. Of course someone who is practiced at something will be good at it. Everyone knows that. So what? What does that have to do with would-be mass shooters? In order to have any relevance with would-be mass shooters, we need to see evidence that they are generally proficient with their weapons. Do we have any such evidence? The answer is obviously a resounding no, otherwise you and CP would have provided it already.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                      Along those lines, when you check somebody else out from a psychiatric hold, they will ask you if there are guns in the house but not about knives and other potential methods.
                      Someone who is determined to kill himself can easily do so without a gun. The anti-Constitution crowd citing gun suicide rates is a red herring.
                      Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                      But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                      Than a fool in the eyes of God


                      From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                        Someone who is determined to kill himself can easily do so without a gun. The anti-Constitution crowd citing gun suicide is a red herring.
                        Professor of Psychiatry at Georgetown University, Liza Gold, points out,

                        Source: https://www.google.com/search?q=Liza+Gold&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-1

                        ...suicides are often impulsive, meaning that there’s a very short time between the decision and the action. Seventy-five percent of suicides occur in the home, and many are also fueled by alcohol, which decreases inhibitions and increases impulsivity. With or without mental illness, someone could be sitting at home, going through a crisis. For kids, that tends to be an emotional or a relationship crisis, for adults it’s often a financial or marital crisis, and for older adults, it happens to be medical problems, especially dementia.

                        So, you have a person sitting at home, who may have some alcohol in their system, and they may impulsively decide that they’re going to kill themselves. Well, to do that, they’re going to use what’s at hand. And there are guns in over a third of the households in the United States, making them both lethal and easily accessible.

                        © Copyright Original Source

                        Comment


                        • And if they don't have access to a gun, they'll use a knife, or a rope, or poison, or the exhaust from their car, or jump off a high-rise balcony, etc.
                          Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
                          But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
                          Than a fool in the eyes of God


                          From "Fools Gold" by Petra

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                            And if they don't have access to a gun, they'll use a knife, or a rope, or poison, or the exhaust from their car, or jump off a high-rise balcony, etc.


                            In Japan the preferred method is by hanging with jumping from a high place coming in second. They often go to an isolated area to help ensure that they are successful. A 2004 study found that in the U.S. hanging is the method of choice for Asians (not just Japanese) living in the U.S.

                            I'm always still in trouble again

                            "You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
                            "Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
                            "Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
                              And if they don't have access to a gun, they'll use a knife, or a rope, or poison, or the exhaust from their car, or jump off a high-rise balcony, etc.
                              Source: https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/gun-suicides-mental-illness-statistics/

                              Suicide accounts for more than two-thirds of the 32,000 firearms deaths the United States averages every year. Or, to come at the issue a different way: Suicide is the second-leading cause of death for Americans aged 15 to 34, and more than 50 percent of cases involve guns. A big reason for the prevalence of firearms in suicides is the deadliness of guns themselves: When a firearm is used in a suicide attempt, there’s an 85 percent chance of it being successful. Whatever numbers you look at, they point to a significant public health problem.

                              © Copyright Original Source



                              I honestly don't understand why this is at all controversial on the gun rights side. There's this sort of...I don't know...bizarre meme, I suppose, that guns aren't any different than anything else for killing. It's a meme born out of a sort of desire to downplay their effectiveness. Guns are extremely good at what they do. They are so good at what they do that every military power in the world decided a loooong time ago to use them in place of things like knives, swords, axes, bows, and the like. They kill quickly and efficiently, and that's why they're generally considered more deadly than rope, poison, and even ladders!

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by rogue06 View Post


                                In Japan the preferred method is by hanging with jumping from a high place coming in second. They often go to an isolated area to help ensure that they are successful. A 2004 study found that in the U.S. hanging is the method of choice for Asians (not just Japanese) living in the U.S.
                                Wow! Thank God they don't have guns. I could only imagine how much greater the success rate of suicide would be there.

                                Comment

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