Originally posted by NorrinRadd
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A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostOk, so from the "wow" response, I'm taking it that you don't actually have any evidence that "somebody who is planning to go on a killing spree is going to practice." That was just your opinion.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostI think you've missed the point. Anybody can overcome the limits of low-capacity magazines with sufficient practice, meaning that laws limiting magazine sizes are more about making the anti-2nd Amendment crowd feel good than it is about actually finding solutions. How do we know this? Because the common sense solution of allowing those who have the requisite training to carry firearms on school property is decried as morally reprehensible by the left.
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Originally posted by Jedidiah View PostSo you do not have any knowledge of the topic. Fine, but even though it has changed somewhat it is still reasonably accurate according to your source - so thanks for the information. Oh, and I am not interested in suicides by gun, only murder by gun. Suicide is a completely separate issue.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostWe're less than two months into the year. How old was the source when you pulled it? And while you may not be interested in suicide by gun, gun control advocates are.
Yeah, I know that was a bit facetious but the point I want to make is that while banning guns might have an effect on the number of suicides committed by using a gun it probably won't effect the overall suicide rate. If someone wants to kill themself there are many ways to do it.
Something I posted on this recently:
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostGun-related suicides? Maybe. The number of suicides? No.
As I mentioned to Starlight when he brought that line up...
Originally posted by Starlight View Post
Reduction of gun suicides was actually a major motivation behind a tightening of gun control laws here in NZ about a decade ago.
Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
It doesn't look like it had much of an effect in the overall suicide rate.
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I also noticed that New Zealand has the highest suicide rate among adolescents of any developed country. And the suicide rate among 15 to 24 year olds is basically twice the rate we have here in the U.S.
And then there is Japan, where getting your hands on a firearm is extremely difficult, which has a suicide rate of 15.4 per 100,000[1] as compared to 12.6 for the U.S.
Belgium, which also has strict gun control laws (which did nothing to stop the terrorists who struck Paris -- and who got their weapons -- including a grenade launcher! -- in Belgium), has a suicide rate of 16.1 per 100,000.
Other countries with strict gun control laws yet high suicide rates include Poland (regarded as having some of Europe's strictest gun control laws) with a suicide rate of 18.5, Russia (also with strict gun control[2]) with a suicide rate of 17.9, and South Korea (again, a country with strict gun control laws) with a suicide rate of 24.1 (nearly double the U.S.).
So, to be honest, the gun-suicide card is really little more than a red herring.
1. The rate used to be much higher but in recent years their government has spent a small fortune trying to reduce it.
2. And a much higher homicide rate as I explained to JimL yesterday
Originally posted by rogue06 View PostMuch stricter than in the U.S. And while the U.S. has something like 10 times more firearms in civilian hands than does Russia the homicide rate here is roughly half of what Russia experiences.Attached Files
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by rogue06 View PostDoes using a firearm to commit suicide make you any more dead?
Yeah, I know that was a bit facetious but the point I want to make is that while banning guns might have an effect on the number of suicides committed by using a gun it probably won't effect the overall suicide rate. If someone wants to kill themself there are many ways to do it.
Something I posted on this recently:
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostOk. Do you have any evidence that would-be mass shooters are generally practiced with low-capacity magazines? That's all I'm asking for.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostApparently gun suicide is pretty high, and it's of course incredibly lethal. Most attempted suicides are a call for help, and less lethal methods of suicide mean that people stay alive long enough to get the help they need. That isn't to say that there aren't other ways to commit lethal suicide, only that gun suicide is a popular option because it's easy to access a gun, and it's a sure way to get dead."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostYou can keep asking, but that's not my point.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostAlong those lines, when you check somebody else out from a psychiatric hold, they will ask you if there are guns in the house but not about knives and other potential methods.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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And if they don't have access to a gun, they'll use a knife, or a rope, or poison, or the exhaust from their car, or jump off a high-rise balcony, etc.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAnd if they don't have access to a gun, they'll use a knife, or a rope, or poison, or the exhaust from their car, or jump off a high-rise balcony, etc.
In Japan the preferred method is by hanging with jumping from a high place coming in second. They often go to an isolated area to help ensure that they are successful. A 2004 study found that in the U.S. hanging is the method of choice for Asians (not just Japanese) living in the U.S.
I'm always still in trouble again
"You're by far the worst poster on TWeb" and "TWeb's biggest liar" --starlight (the guy who says Stalin was a right-winger)
"Overall I would rate the withdrawal from Afghanistan as by far the best thing Biden's done" --Starlight
"Of course, human life begins at fertilization that’s not the argument." --Tassman
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostAnd if they don't have access to a gun, they'll use a knife, or a rope, or poison, or the exhaust from their car, or jump off a high-rise balcony, etc.
I honestly don't understand why this is at all controversial on the gun rights side. There's this sort of...I don't know...bizarre meme, I suppose, that guns aren't any different than anything else for killing. It's a meme born out of a sort of desire to downplay their effectiveness. Guns are extremely good at what they do. They are so good at what they do that every military power in the world decided a loooong time ago to use them in place of things like knives, swords, axes, bows, and the like. They kill quickly and efficiently, and that's why they're generally considered more deadly than rope, poison, and even ladders!
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Originally posted by rogue06 View Post
In Japan the preferred method is by hanging with jumping from a high place coming in second. They often go to an isolated area to help ensure that they are successful. A 2004 study found that in the U.S. hanging is the method of choice for Asians (not just Japanese) living in the U.S.
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