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A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

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  • #16
    OK - I need to get some work done - and I have to get my teeth fixed. I'll be off for most of the rest of the day. Play nice, please!

    (we really need a better "please" emoji for us heathens! )
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      I and others have suggested extremely harsh prison sentences for anyone who even possesses a gun during any crime. I have not seen a single response to this. We need to come down hard on criminals and go very easy on law abiding citizens. Are there any other suggestion solutions from pro-2nd/anti gun control folks out there?
      Severely punish those who abuse their right to own firearms. Not those of us who are responsible owners.
      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
        I think that all gets lost in the racial issues that usually accompany police involved shootings.
        Which takes it back to my original question. Why is the cop always blamed and not the gun, but in school situations, it's not the shooter, it's the gun.

        Racial issues may have a lot to do with it in a police situation, but I don't believe it's the entire issue.


        Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
          I do believe that the penalty for any crime should be "enhanced" if it is conducted using a gun.
          In many jurisdictions, that's what the "aggravated" is in a robbery or theft. The addition of a gun 'upgrades' the offense, for example, from 'robbery' to 'aggravated robbery'. (Other factors are involved in 'aggravated', such as the difference between a burglary and an aggravated burglary - the latter being, for example, the burglary of an occupied building or home)

          Mandatory incarceration. Extended prison term (50% more? 100% more?).
          I'm really rethinking this "automatic going to jail" thing - because I know what goes on "in jail". Somebody who makes a really stupid decision ends up in a place where they learn how to make even bigger stupid decisions.

          No option for probation. Etc. However, I just saw Adrift's response and realize, as I write this, that we lack the data to tell us if any of this would actually make a difference. It seems common sense, but we need to study it to know more.

          I made another proposal I'd be curious to know how it would be received: I wonder if people would not be a lot more careful with their firearms if the on-record owner of the gun faced the same penalty (or at least SOME penalty) as the person using it to commit a crime? Thoughts? (and yes, I know we lack the data for this as well).
          I think, just like the owner of a vehicle that is used in a vehicular homicide - it needs to be shown that the owner was negligent in securing that vehicle. Same with a gun owner. Rather than being automatically culpable, there needs to be some evidence that he was negligent in securing or controlling the use of his firearms.

          I'd even be 'for' the process to be more strict on the gun owner than the car owner, but we are still a nation of "presumption of innocence".
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by mossrose View Post
            Which takes it back to my original question. Why is the cop always blamed and not the gun, but in school situations, it's not the shooter, it's the gun.

            Racial issues may have a lot to do with it in a police situation, but I don't believe it's the entire issue.
            The craze, in the last decade or so, involving police shootings has been the "systematic racial" element. Those are the only ones that really get media attention.

            But, I agree, in the school shooter situation, we really need to be looking at why they do this, and how to identify potential shooters.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Adrift View Post
              I think mostly because it doesn't sound like a reasonable response. Sentencing a first time offender to life, or threatening them with capital punishment for brandishing a weapon in which no one was harmed and no lives were taken would probably seem to the majority of US citizens as an unjust punishment. As well, there's lots of debate on whether or not there is any actual correlation between the length of a sentence and the deterrence of crime. Plenty of experts think there is not.
              I think a more proportional punishment is that individual forfeiting their right to own ANY firearms, for whatever period of time deemed appropriate. (along with whatever applicable penal remedies)
              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                I'm not so sure that's a fair statement. I know it's not true of me.
                But how can that be? You've previously suggested that teachers be allowed to be armed, which is precisely the sort of thing I mean when I say "gun rights advocates believe that guns are the solution to gun violence."


                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                And, ironically, the more perception there is that guns will be outlawed or controlled - the more guns are bought and sold. The very discussion of controlling guns drives sales.
                Yep, I'm aware of that. It's a factor that seems to skew surveys on whether or not the rise of gun ownership has any sort of correlation to dropping rates of gun homicide. I think eventually something will give though.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  But how can that be? You've previously suggested that teachers be allowed to be armed, which is precisely the sort of thing I mean when I say "gun rights advocates believe that guns are the solution to gun violence."
                  I wish you guys would stop with this gun "violence" nonsense. When someone gets killed with a bat or knife do you call it knife or bat violence?
                  Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                    But how can that be? You've previously suggested that teachers be allowed to be armed, which is precisely the sort of thing I mean when I say "gun rights advocates believe that guns are the solution to gun violence."
                    I love ya, man, but PLEASE stop distorting my position on this ... not "teachers" ... but SOME teachers. That's important. And it's not "THE" solution... there are many things that can and should be done.

                    Yep, I'm aware of that. It's a factor that seems to skew surveys on whether or not the rise of gun ownership has any sort of correlation to dropping rates of gun homicide. I think eventually something will give though.
                    I have to admit, I finally bought an AR-15 last week because I'm seeing this "more than ever" drive to ban "assault weapons". I trust me to own one - I don't trust bad people to own any.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      I love ya, man, but PLEASE stop distorting my position on this ... not "teachers" ... but SOME teachers. That's important. And it's not "THE" solution... there are many things that can and should be done.
                      I did not distort your position. The word "teachers", by itself, does in no way suggest "all teachers". I love you too bro, but I think you're getting really carried away about the lack of exacting adjectives. Nor have I anywhere indicated that you think that allowing teachers to be armed is the only solution. Just because I haven't detailed every nuance of your position doesn't mean that I don't know your position, or that I'm attempting to sneak in some other more nefarious meaning. I stand by the words I originally typed, and I think your views fit the description just fine.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        I did not distort your position.
                        I don't, for a second, believe you'd do that intentionally.

                        The word "teachers", by itself, does in no way suggest "all teachers".
                        Of course not, but it's quite different from "some" teachers, when that's consistently what I've claimed. The fact that I've made it very clear that it should NOT be "all teachers" would have me hope you'd honor that distinction on my part.

                        I love you too bro, but I think you're getting really carried away about the lack of exacting adjectives.
                        It's crucial - I do NOT want all teachers, or even a lot of teachers armed. It's very limited.

                        Nor have I anywhere indicated that you think that allowing teachers to be armed is the only solution. Just because I haven't detailed every nuance of your position doesn't mean that I don't know your position, or that I'm attempting to sneak in some other more nefarious meaning. I stand by the words I originally typed, and I think your views fit the description just fine.
                        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          Of course not, but it's quite different from "some" teachers, when that's consistently what I've claimed. The fact that I've made it very clear that it should NOT be "all teachers" would have me hope you'd honor that distinction on my part.
                          You do realize that "teachers", by itself, is a general term, correct? It can refer to more than 1 teacher, it can refer to some teachers, it can refer to all teachers, it can refer to trained teachers, it can refer to un-trained teachers. The word itself is completely neutral. Using the general term "teachers" is perfectly fine and normal language in describing your view. It does not at all, in any way, shape or form, distort your position either intentionally or non-intentionally. You're honestly making much ado about nothing.

                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          It's crucial - I do NOT want all teachers, or even a lot of teachers armed. It's very limited.
                          Nor have I stated otherwise. None the less, you have suggested armed teachers, which fits perfectly with my view that gun rights advocates believe that guns are the solution to gun violence.

                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I honestly don't know what the issue is here. You were frustrated in another thread for similar reasons, and it didn't make much sense there either.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                            I think mostly because it doesn't sound like a reasonable response. Sentencing a first time offender to life, or threatening them with capital punishment for brandishing a weapon in which no one was harmed and no lives were taken would probably seem to the majority of US citizens as an unjust punishment. As well, there's lots of debate on whether or not there is any actual correlation between the length of a sentence and the deterrence of crime. Plenty of experts think there is not.
                            Well if the punishment was harsh then they would make sure NOT to carry a gun around while committing a crime, right? Isn't that a better solution than punishing all citizens with gun controls that are really only meant to stop a small percent of the population from using guns to commit crimes? At least you are only punishing those who actually DO use guns in crimes.

                            The bigger problem is that we keep letting the criminals OUT of prison because of "overcrowding"

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                              I do believe that the penalty for any crime should be "enhanced" if it is conducted using a gun. Mandatory incarceration. Extended prison term (50% more? 100% more?). No option for probation. Etc. However, I just saw Adrift's response and realize, as I write this, that we lack the data to tell us if any of this would actually make a difference. It seems common sense, but we need to study it to know more.

                              I made another proposal I'd be curious to know how it would be received: I wonder if people would not be a lot more careful with their firearms if the on-record owner of the gun faced the same penalty (or at least SOME penalty) as the person using it to commit a crime? Thoughts? (and yes, I know we lack the data for this as well).
                              so if you got burglarized and someone else used your gun to commit a crime, you should go to jail? Does that sound fair to you?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                Well if the punishment was harsh then they would make sure NOT to carry a gun around while committing a crime, right? Isn't that a better solution than punishing all citizens with gun controls that are really only meant to stop a small percent of the population from using guns to commit crimes? At least you are only punishing those who actually DO use guns in crimes.

                                The bigger problem is that we keep letting the criminals OUT of prison because of "overcrowding"
                                Only if it's an actual deterrent, but I mentioned something about that in the post you're replying to.

                                Comment

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