A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

[Sparko]

I do not know the statistics of how many schools have and do not have armed teachers, here or internationally.



My thoughts exactly...but the police would have to be very selective about the police they get. They need "kid-friendly" police. Some crochety old coot sour on everything and ready for retirement will just make things worse.

They should dress them up as superheroes!

[carpedm9587]

They should dress them up as superheroes!

That most definitely earns an

[Sparko]

That most definitely earns an

Kindergarten Cop 2018
batmanthepunisher.jpg

[carpedm9587]

I listened to a podcast today, and it reminded me of this thread. The podcast was the effort to keep guns out of the hands of those who have a psychological predisposition to violence. As I listened, people form both sides said "we need to keep guns out of the hands of people who will use them to do massive harm" (e.g., the parkland shooting).

This appears to be something we all agree on. People who are psychologically unstable, and likely to harm many in a massive, multi-victim shooting, should not have access to fire arms. Nicholas Cruz should not have been able to legally purchase a firearm.

So, my question to the gun rights advocates is this: what initiatives would you support that would prevent people like Nicholas Cruz from legally securing firearms? It seems to me that whatever initiatives you would support would be eagerly supported by gun control advocates. Maybe this is a starting place.

Thoughts?

[TheWall]

I listened to a podcast today, and it reminded me of this thread. The podcast was the effort to keep guns out of the hands of those who have a psychological predisposition to violence. As I listened, people form both sides said "we need to keep guns out of the hands of people who will use them to do massive harm" (e.g., the parkland shooting).

This appears to be something we all agree on. People who are psychologically unstable, and likely to harm many in a massive, multi-victim shooting, should not have access to fire arms. Nicholas Cruz should not have been able to legally purchase a firearm.

So, my question to the gun rights advocates is this: what initiatives would you support that would prevent people like Nicholas Cruz from legally securing firearms? It seems to me that whatever initiatives you would support would be eagerly supported by gun control advocates. Maybe this is a starting place.

Thoughts?

Again i keep mentioning gun probation as has ben shapiro.

[carpedm9587]

Again i keep mentioning gun probation as has ben shapiro.

Thanks for the response, TW. Four days after the original post...yours is the only response. It truly makes me wonder.

Meanwhile...this.

Speaking as a parent, I am outraged that our children have to die before those of us who can influence the laws of this land will act. We are in the grips of the most powerful lobby/industry in the history of this country. 3% of our citizens own 50% of the 350 million guns out there - which amounts to 16 guns for each of these citizens. And a teenager can walk into a gun store and buy a semi-automatic, assault-type rifle (which is what the AR in AR-15 stands for). And while everyone talks about "keeping the guns out of the hands of those who should not have them," when someone says, "ok - how do we do that?" --- crickets.

We should be ashamed of ourselves - that the needs of a major industry trump the lives of our children.

And I have no emotional capacity to listen to yet another round of "protect our gun rights." Protect our children's lives!!!

[Cerebrum123]

Thanks for the response, TW. Four days after the original post...yours is the only response. It truly makes me wonder.

Meanwhile...this.

Speaking as a parent, I am outraged that our children have to die before those of us who can influence the laws of this land will act. We are in the grips of the most powerful lobby/industry in the history of this country. 3% of our citizens own 50% of the 350 million guns out there - which amounts to 16 guns for each of these citizens. And a teenager can walk into a gun store and buy a semi-automatic, assault-type rifle (which is what the AR in AR-15 stands for). And while everyone talks about "keeping the guns out of the hands of those who should not have them," when someone says, "ok - how do we do that?" --- crickets.

We should be ashamed of ourselves - that the needs of a major industry trump the lives of our children.

And I have no emotional capacity to listen to yet another round of "protect our gun rights." Protect our children's lives!!!

If the laws on the books right now were actually enforced a lot of the past mass shootings wouldn't have happened. That one kid, I believe in Florida, had been known to be a trouble maker for a long time. People went all the way to the FBI to report him, but nothing was done. You want this to end, start actually doing something about the troublemakers. But no, you won't see anything like that happen because the people in charge of the schools are too afraid of things like damaging their self esteem, or letting anyone know just how rotten the kids really are. Letting these kids run wild with no real repercussions is why I'm disabled.

Oh, and actually, it means Armalite Rifle. The AR part is trademarked by Armalite, and doesn't even mean the gun in question is a rifle at all. The AR-17 is a shotgun. I believe rogue06 pointed this out earlier in this very thread.

The people here also want to protect this countries children, and the fact that you are willing to imply otherwise is probably why people stopped dealing with you here. It's clear you are outraged, and it is clear your are letting that outrage shut off your reasoning capabilities. Do you really expect people to have a discussion with you in this state?

[carpedm9587]

So a few things to consider. The U.S. is home to 5% of the world's population. We are home to 35.7% of school rampage killings. We are home to 100% of the top four rampage killings (based on total number killed, fourth is actually tied with an incident in West Germany) and 60% of the top ten.

And then, irony of all ironies, when Pence goes to speak to the NRA - they bar guns from the venue. Apparently, a room full of guns is not acceptable for the VP when the room is full of supposedly "safe" and law-abiding NRA members, and a "gun free zone" is acceptable. But we are not prepared to do the same thing for our children in their schools.

It's outrageous...

[rogue06]

So a few things to consider. The U.S. is home to 5% of the world's population. We are home to 35.7% of school rampage killings. We are home to 100% of the top four rampage killings (based on total number killed, fourth is actually tied with an incident in West Germany) and 60% of the top ten.

And then, irony of all ironies, when Pence goes to speak to the NRA - they bar guns from the venue. Apparently, a room full of guns is not acceptable for the VP when the room is full of supposedly "safe" and law-abiding NRA members, and a "gun free zone" is acceptable. But we are not prepared to do the same thing for our children in their schools.

It's outrageous...

And what you'll never consider but choose instead to hand wave away:

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That gun violence has plummeted from the levels it was at a few decades ago while simultaneously the number of firearms in the hands of the public has skyrocketed. Hard to explain if the availability of guns is the cause of the violence.

[Littlejoe]

I listened to a podcast today, and it reminded me of this thread. The podcast was the effort to keep guns out of the hands of those who have a psychological predisposition to violence. As I listened, people form both sides said "we need to keep guns out of the hands of people who will use them to do massive harm" (e.g., the parkland shooting).

This appears to be something we all agree on. People who are psychologically unstable, and likely to harm many in a massive, multi-victim shooting, should not have access to fire arms. Nicholas Cruz should not have been able to legally purchase a firearm.

So, my question to the gun rights advocates is this: what initiatives would you support that would prevent people like Nicholas Cruz from legally securing firearms? It seems to me that whatever initiatives you would support would be eagerly supported by gun control advocates. Maybe this is a starting place.

Thoughts?

I read this a few days ago and I've been thinking on it. Sorry for the slow reply, it's a very complex subject as everyone realizes. Since we know that criminals don't obey gun laws, what are some of the ways we can possibly reduce school shootings? I'm not sure, one thing about psychological issues, is HIPAA laws may have some say on whether the info can even be disseminated. Here's a few I think would help...
1. Have multiple armed adults at school that have been trained in using guns to defend themselves and people. These could be police officers, administrators, teachers, or even volunteers. If there is only one "resource officer" it is too easy to find out where (s)he is and attack the school elsewhere or ambush the RO. With multiple people trained and carrying guns, it is much harder to stop resistance.
2. If a juvenile has been adjudicated as mentally unstable or guilty of violent crimes, then the parents must not be allowed to have weapons in the house so long as their child is living with them. They can store those weapons at a police or fire station and have access to them. When the child leaves the house, the parents can have their weapons back.
3. (gun crime related) - any crime that is committed with a firearm has an automatic 10 year flat sentence (for the first offense). This 10 years cannot be plea bargained away and is not subject to being reduced for "good time" and is not subject to parole. It can only be commuted or pardoned by the Governor of a state (in accordance with state laws) or by the President of the USA.
What are your suggestions?

[carpedm9587]

I read this a few days ago and I've been thinking on it. Sorry for the slow reply, it's a very complex subject as everyone realizes. Since we know that criminals don't obey gun laws, what are some of the ways we can possibly reduce school shootings? I'm not sure, one thing about psychological issues, is HIPAA laws may have some say on whether the info can even be disseminated. Here's a few I think would help...
1. Have multiple armed adults at school that have been trained in using guns to defend themselves and people. These could be police officers, administrators, teachers, or even volunteers. If there is only one "resource officer" it is too easy to find out where (s)he is and attack the school elsewhere or ambush the RO. With multiple people trained and carrying guns, it is much harder to stop resistance.
2. If a juvenile has been adjudicated as mentally unstable or guilty of violent crimes, then the parents must not be allowed to have weapons in the house so long as their child is living with them. They can store those weapons at a police or fire station and have access to them. When the child leaves the house, the parents can have their weapons back.
3. (gun crime related) - any crime that is committed with a firearm has an automatic 10 year flat sentence (for the first offense). This 10 years cannot be plea bargained away and is not subject to being reduced for "good time" and is not subject to parole. It can only be commuted or pardoned by the Governor of a state (in accordance with state laws) or by the President of the USA.
What are your suggestions?

Of your list, only #2 seems to actually (possibly) address the question I asked, and only for juveniles. My question was based on the assumption that we all agree that people who are psychologically unsuited for having a firearm should be kept from them. We hear this time and time again from the left and the right. The right usually then goes on to talk about how we cannot take firearms from law abiding citizens, pivoting the discussion away from the psychological one.

So I am asking for those who advocate for gun rights to put their proposed solutions on the table for keeping guns out of the hands of people like Mr. Kelley, Mr. Paddock, and (most recently), Mr. Pagourtzis? If we agree it needs to be done, how do we do it?

[Cerebrum123]

So a few things to consider. The U.S. is home to 5% of the world's population. We are home to 35.7% of school rampage killings. We are home to 100% of the top four rampage killings (based on total number killed, fourth is actually tied with an incident in West Germany) and 60% of the top ten.

And then, irony of all ironies, when Pence goes to speak to the NRA - they bar guns from the venue. Apparently, a room full of guns is not acceptable for the VP when the room is full of supposedly "safe" and law-abiding NRA members, and a "gun free zone" is acceptable. But we are not prepared to do the same thing for our children in their schools.

It's outrageous...

Did they disarm Pence's security team? If not, then it is not a "gun free zone" in the sense you are trying to imply.

[rogue06]

Of your list, only #2 seems to actually (possibly) address the question I asked, and only for juveniles. My question was based on the assumption that we all agree that people who are psychologically unsuited for having a firearm should be kept from them. We hear this time and time again from the left and the right. The right usually then goes on to talk about how we cannot take firearms from law abiding citizens, pivoting the discussion away from the psychological one.

So I am asking for those who advocate for gun rights to put their proposed solutions on the table for keeping guns out of the hands of people like Mr. Kelley, Mr. Paddock, and (most recently), Mr. Pagourtzis? If we agree it needs to be done, how do we do it?

In the most recent case, the one involving Pagourtzis, it appears this would have been extremely difficult in that it seems there were none of the usual red flags that we've seen with many of the others -- particularly Cruz.

[carpedm9587]

Did they disarm Pence's security team? If not, then it is not a "gun free zone" in the sense you are trying to imply.

Even "gun free zones" can have police and security officers present, Cerebrum. They prohibit "unauthorized persons" from carrying guns on premises. So the situation is pretty much parallel. The term arises, as best I can tell, from a 1990 act of the same name.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...est/381902002/

[carpedm9587]

And what you'll never consider but choose instead to hand wave away:

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That gun violence has plummeted from the levels it was at a few decades ago while simultaneously the number of firearms in the hands of the public has skyrocketed. Hard to explain if the availability of guns is the cause of the violence.

This little ditty has been posted and responded to so many times, it seems rather pointless to do it again, especially since you've already declared any response "hand waving." However my response is the same one I've always given:

Correlation is not causation. Much else has changed since 1994 that a drop in gun homicide rates can be attributed to. The fact that there is no correlation here is also indicated by the fact that almost all of that growth in guns/person is attributed to the accelerated purchase by 3% of the population, where the gun/person number has soared to 16/individual, lifting the average for everyone as a result. There has been almost no growth for the remaining 97%.

I know the NRA loves this little diagram - but it says nothing.