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A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

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  • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
    Y'all need a definition of 'proficient'. I can shoot safely - but that doesn't mean I can effectively fight an urban warfare scenario.

    Also, kids have simulators at home called video games. You don't need a lot of target practice if you have a lot of simulator time logged. It's not that hard to get used to recoil.

    CP is making your case for abolition here.
    Video games as a weapons simulator? Hardly. They might teach you basic combat tactics, but they won't teach you a thing about how to properly handle a gun.
    Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
    But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
    Than a fool in the eyes of God


    From "Fools Gold" by Petra

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    • Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      Y'all need a definition of 'proficient'. I can shoot safely - but that doesn't mean I can effectively fight an urban warfare scenario.

      Also, kids have simulators at home called video games. You don't need a lot of target practice if you have a lot of simulator time logged. It's not that hard to get used to recoil.
      Anyone can fire a gun, but firing one proficiently takes practice. A proficient gunman will have the ability to find and hit his targets quickly and with deadly accuracy, and will also be able to reload, clear malfunctions, and switch to other guns quickly and confidently.

      Originally posted by Teallaura View Post
      CP is making your case for abolition here.
      Yeah, I kinda agree. Honestly, since I think focusing on things like magazine size is missing the bigger picture, I ultimately don't think it matters whether one is proficient or not (you can still kill lots of people with guns without being proficient, which is obviously why they're preferred), but he keeps repeating the idea that mass shooters are proficient, and I'm just curious where he's getting that idea. I imagine that most spree killers are driven by the passion to destroy, and they don't really take much time to hone their skills. Boasting that you're going to be a professional school shooter doesn't say anything about proficiency. As far as I can tell, there have currently been 150 mass shootings in America since 1966 (4 or more people killed during a shooting), with likely far more mass shootings prevented before they occurred, or stopped midway. It seems unlikely to me that most of those shootings or attempts were done by proficient gunmen, but I don't mind being proven wrong if the evidence can be shown.

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      • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
        I'll admit I'm not a gun user so I could be wrong, but I highly question how effective as a simulator a video game is due to the many apparent differences between them and real life. Driving games certainly did essentially nothing to prepare me for learning how to actually drive.
        We had a training simulator back in tech school in the Air Force that we used for a couple weeks, but I didn't really help much. Normal video games don't provide much help in the way of firing real guns. Maybe there's some hand to eye coordination stuff going on, but probably not.

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        • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          ...Honestly, since I think focusing on things like magazine size is missing the bigger picture....
          Yeah!

          ...but he keeps repeating the idea that mass shooters are proficient....
          To the extent that "switching magazines" is not going to be a problem for them. You seem to be wanting to make it a much bigger thing than that. That's been the focus - that somehow, lower capacity magazines would slow down an active shooter....

          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
          In this case, the guy was a gun nut - I think there's no reason in the world to believe that 'swapping magazines' was not something he practiced, as he bragged he was going to be "a professional school shooter".
          I defined what I meant by "proficient" - the context in which I was using it - 'swapping magazines'.
          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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          • Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
            It puts more (way too much authority in the nanny state. I have no trust in them at all. Have you ever worked for the post office? I did once as a temp when I was in college. That has colored my view of big government, and that coloring has been reinforced over the following 50 some year.
            You worked as a temp for the post office once, some 50 years ago, and that's colored your view of government ever since??

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            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              wow
              Ok, so from the "wow" response, I'm taking it that you don't actually have any evidence that "somebody who is planning to go on a killing spree is going to practice." That was just your opinion.

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              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                You seem to be wanting to make it a much bigger thing than that.
                Not really. I just wanted to see what evidence you had for the claim.

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                • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                  Not really. I just wanted to see what evidence you had for the claim.
                  The claim that a shooter would be (changing the word here) 'sufficiently capable' of swapping magazines, such that it doesn't make a whole lot of difference whether a magazine has 8 or 30 rounds?

                  Is THAT better?

                  (And I suspect that you're aware that part of the functionality of the AR-15 is that the magazine slides in easily, ejects easily, and does not have to be "rocked" or "cammed" into place?)
                  Last edited by Cow Poke; 02-24-2018, 04:40 PM.
                  The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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                  • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                    The claim that a shooter would be (changing the word here) 'sufficiently capable' of swapping magazines, such that it doesn't make a whole lot of difference whether a magazine has 8 or 30 rounds?

                    Is THAT better?

                    (And I suspect that you're aware that part of the functionality of the AR-15 is that the magazine slides in easily, ejects easily, and does not have to be "rocked" or "cammed" into place?)
                    I think everyone is probably 'sufficiently capable' of swapping magazines, barring any physical deformities. It's not that hard. I'm just challenging the idea that all would-be mass shooters are professionals or something. They may be, I don't know (which is why I'd like to see evidence), but I have a feeling that most mass shootings are crimes of passion done with little practice, no matter how strong the interest in guns may be. Like I said, I knew of a number of Soldier of Fortune weirdos in the military (who I wouldn't be surprised at all to learn were planning on going on a killing spree) who could barely hold a gun right. In fact, they were often so incompetent they were usually dishonorably discharged not long after.

                    I knew this one dude who was a hardcore gun enthusiast who took his BDUs and dyed them black, and then ran around base at night, jumping from shadow to shadow thinking he was a ninja. He got discharged not long after for showing up to duty drunk. Worst part is that he used my pots and pans to dye his uniform because we shared a kitchen, and ruined them all. I knew another gun nut, who'd thumb through gun and knife magazines all day, who used to buy all his own gear rather than that provided for him. He thought it was all super tactical, but it was noisy, and messy, and just loaded him down. He was the laziest Airman in our squad. Eventually got discharged for wearing night-vision goggles while patrolling, and drove into a ditch and ruined a Humvee. Another hardcore Soldier of Fortune type I knew was just plain crazy. Wimpy dude, that was probably bullied a lot in school. Had a weird stare, would talk to himself, and when talking to others would only go on about the guns he owned, or professional wrestling. Totally kooky guy who couldn't seem to do anything right. For some dumb reason, to keep him away from others, they put him in the armory, until he shot the barrel unloading an M16. Then they got rid of him. I knew a bunch of others guys in the Airforce who were like that too, and the horror stories from my Army friends make me think it was worse there.
                    Last edited by Adrift; 02-24-2018, 05:12 PM.

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                    • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                      We had a training simulator back in tech school in the Air Force that we used for a couple weeks, but I didn't really help much. Normal video games don't provide much help in the way of firing real guns. Maybe there's some hand to eye coordination stuff going on, but probably not.
                      Supported by all I have seen of government work since then, yes. It has only gotten worse.
                      Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

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                      • Originally posted by Adrift View Post
                        We had a training simulator back in tech school in the Air Force that we used for a couple weeks, but I didn't really help much. Normal video games don't provide much help in the way of firing real guns. Maybe there's some hand to eye coordination stuff going on, but probably not.
                        I know the military has some combat simulators, but I'm pretty sure those are considerably different (and more high-tech) than the "simulators called video games" that "kids at home" have.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                          Much as I want to stand and applaud the overall message - this is a discussion fraught with emotion and condescension. Please be careful, in this thread, to keep it respectful. If I call MM on "stupid," I have to call you on "dumb."

                          You do realize that you in that sentence is necessarily general, not personal, right?
                          "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                          "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                          My Personal Blog

                          My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                          Quill Sword

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                          • Originally posted by Terraceth View Post
                            I know the military has some combat simulators, but I'm pretty sure those are considerably different (and more high-tech) than the "simulators called video games" that "kids at home" have.
                            Of course they are - but the principal is the same and you don't need SWAT or Special Forces - or heck, regular forces - level training to cause mayhem and death in a public place with a gun - just the basics of weapon handling. Some tactics and strategy - as well as aim to a degree - can be picked up from video games which makes matters worse.

                            That effect has been noted by the military.
                            "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                            "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                            My Personal Blog

                            My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                            Quill Sword

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                            • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                              In this case, the guy was a gun nut - I think there's no reason in the world to believe that 'swapping magazines' was not something he practiced, as he bragged he was going to be "a professional school shooter".



                              The school is a gun-free zone - pretty much the opposite of "urban warfare". There is no return fire - he has plenty of time to swap magazines as he moved throughout the building.



                              do tell
                              Then why does this matter, again? Adrift wanted to know why you thought such shooters are usually/often proficient. Depending on the definition, 'proficiency' doesn't seem a necessary part of killing people in public places.
                              "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                              "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                              My Personal Blog

                              My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                              Quill Sword

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                              • Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                                In answer to Sparko's question, you did.





                                Even if it wasn't a legal or civil remedy, I would feel horrible if an innocent person were killed with a weapon I owned.
                                Eh, conceded. I presumed wanton negligence and didn't specify it. He should be substantially fined at the very least.
                                "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot

                                "Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman

                                My Personal Blog

                                My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)

                                Quill Sword

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