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A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

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  • #76
    Originally posted by seer View Post
    This is an old story but I'm sure it still the case:

    ILLEGAL FIREARMS IMPORTED FROM CHINA, U.S. REPORTS

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.9cd3ae613a96
    Two of my favorite handguns are from the Czech Republic. My very favorite semi-auto is my CZ-75!
    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
      This would, of course, require a massive gun ownership database. I think this is a major area of mistrust - both from a practical stance (even credit companies can't keep their records secure) and what you might call a conspiratorial stance (easier for the government to round up guns).

      None of my firearms are "registered" in a database.
      I understand that. And I understand the massive level of distrust of the government that exists out there. That's why I have to wonder if the solution to this might not be to fund the NRA, with public dollars, to develop and maintain that database? They are respected by gun owners - they would be subject to auditing and checks - they would realize a new revenue source - and we would gain access to a repository of ownership information that could be used to trace guns used in crimes, to detect gun accumulation, and to look for "flags" in which a gun owner has other characteristics (e.g., recent mental diagnosis, recent crime, accumulation of excessive firearms) that might warrant a check or intervention.
      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        If history shows us anything, it shows us that making certain things "illegal" simply feeds a black market for them.
        As I have mentioned like prohibition - or, more currently, the "war on drugs".

        That doesn't mean everything should be legal, but it does mean we need to be careful about we do and do notmake illegal. It's not clear to me that "banning guns" is going to solve the problem. And there is a vast array of perfectly appropriate uses for guns. We need to find the strategy that will allow law-abiding citizens to own and use guns, while simultaneously minimizing the potential for them getting into the hands of those who are most likely to do harm.
        Well, they'll have to pry them from my cold....

        ... um




        neermind
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

        Comment


        • #79
          Originally posted by Adrift View Post
          Ok.



          Gotta start someplace. Sooner we do it, the less we have to wait.



          Which would likely disincentivize most would be criminals.



          I don't agree.

          So if we keep locking up gun-toting criminals, wouldn't that eventually get all of the criminals off the street? Heck, stick them in the Army and send them to Afghanistan where they can use the guns all they want.

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
            In the case of a 'mass shooter', they often don't give a flyin' flip about laws or consequences, because they often plan on "going out in a blaze of glory", and there is nobody to prosecute.
            Sadly - true enough.
            The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

            I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

            Comment


            • #81
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              EGGzackly. And I don't think there's even a snowball's chance in the hot place that all other countries will stop manufacturing and shipping guns. Do you have any idea, for example, how many countries and manufacturers are licensed to produce the AK-47?
              Nope. On that front, I am clueless.

              But ask me how an IP packet is structured!
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                But, as we have discussed before, there are notable differences between gun and vehicles, and gun and vehicle ownership and/or registration.
                There are differences - and there are parallels. It's not all one or the other...
                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by mossrose View Post
                  Thanks for opinions on my question, folks. I'll bow out now.

                  Thanks for keeping it civil!



                  (why am I suddenly feeling a tad pollyanna-ish? )
                  The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                  I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    Nope. On that front, I am clueless.
                    Bunches!

                    But ask me how an IP packet is structured!
                    Don't have to, I have my CCNA.
                    The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                      There are differences - and there are parallels. It's not all one or the other...
                      But it's obvious that it's not even a "close" analogy on so many fronts.
                      The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                        Nope. On that front, I am clueless.

                        But ask me how an IP packet is structured!
                        How is an IP packet structured?

                        And what caliber is it?
                        I DENOUNCE DONALD J. TRUMP AND ALL HIS IMMORAL ACTS.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Zymologist View Post
                          How is an IP packet structured?

                          And what caliber is it?
                          And is it air cooled, gas operated, and magazine fed?
                          The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            If history shows us anything, it shows us that making certain things "illegal" simply feeds a black market for them. That doesn't mean everything should be legal, but it does mean we need to be careful about we do and do notmake illegal. It's not clear to me that "banning guns" is going to solve the problem. And there is a vast array of perfectly appropriate uses for guns. We need to find the strategy that will allow law-abiding citizens to own and use guns, while simultaneously minimizing the potential for them getting into the hands of those who are most likely to do harm.
                            right. Banning drugs didn't eliminate drugs because they didn't go after the root of the problem: People want to use drugs. As long as there is a market for them there will be illegal drugs. Guns are the same. As long as criminals want guns, they will get guns.

                            We have to go after the end user. If we can't change people's minds or get them mental help, we need to keep them off the streets or frighten them so much that they won't want to risk using guns on something. If they would get 3 years for burglary, but 15 if they had a gun, how many burglars do you think would risk using guns? Strict punishment probably won't work on mass shooters because like CP said, they don't expect to survive. We just need to stop them before they get to that point. Like take seriously all the warnings like they got with the Cruz kid.

                            No solution will be 100%. We will always have crime and murder. Until Jesus comes back.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              right. Banning drugs didn't eliminate drugs because they didn't go after the root of the problem: People want to use drugs. As long as there is a market for them there will be illegal drugs. Guns are the same. As long as criminals want guns, they will get guns.
                              And the "market" for guns also consists of millions of law abiding citizens, regardless of any proposed legislation. You just can't make that go away on a whim.
                              The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                                You are misunderstanding me.

                                We already have regulations on guns. They ain't working. But I am all for having some regulations and doing some good. Adrift proposes banning some or all guns from everyone. He thinks that way they will eventually go out of circulation (as cops take them off the streets from criminals they catch) - only a total ban would even start to accomplish that because you have to make sure there is no fresh supply.

                                My point is that even if you could accomplish that, there are still a LOT of guns out there. It would take a long time. And you would just increase the profitability of gun smugglers to traffick in guns from other countries that don't have a ban. Like countries in middle and south america.
                                Thanks for the correction. And I have to admit that I agree with you. I cannot see widespread gun bans as a viiable solution. Yes, I think SOME types of guns should be banned. And I lean towards control on magazine capacity. And there IS a part of me that think hunting will only truly become a sport when we arm the deer (OK - I couldn't resist that). But the fact is we don't have good data on the viability of ANY of these solutions, and I am sensitive to any proposition that simply guts citizens of their right to bear arms. My dad was a hunter - and my brother and brother-in-law are hunters. We live in a community where hunting is as natural as breathing. Anything that would compromise that would seem to me to be a problem. I recognize the role of a gun as a tool on a ranch or even a farm.

                                I think the question we need to keep returning to is - how do we keep guns out of the hands of people who ought not have them? To achieve that, I think, at the very least, gun owners need to recognize that they are in possession of a weapon of harm - and part of the right to have that weapon includes the responsibility to help the rest of us ensure that they are not acquired by those who ought not have them.
                                The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                                I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                                Comment

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