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A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Do criminals still use guns in cities and jurisdictions where they are banned?
    From what I know of the available data - they simply bring them in from locations where they are not banned - or they obtain them illegally.
    The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

    I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      First that would take a ban on ALL guns, maybe on gun manufacturing.
      Ok.

      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      And it would take a LONG time, because there are a lot of guns out there.
      Gotta start someplace. Sooner we do it, the less we have to wait.

      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      And other countries make guns and have them too. You would basically just be increasing the cost of illegal guns, and making them a precious commodity for gun runners and smugglers. Like trying to ban narcotics.
      Which would likely disincentivize most would be criminals.

      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
      It just isn't reasonable. It is a lot more reasonable to maximize the punishment for those who misuse guns to the point that the criminals might think twice about using a gun during a burglary or other crime. I understand most criminals don't expect to get caught, but enough of them have been caught and have records of multiple arrests and stops that they would be pretty leary about getting caught and having to spend say 15 years in jail for just having a gun during a crime.
      I don't agree.

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
        Ouch...

        But I have to wonder if extreme penalties for use of a gun in the commission of a crime wouldn't change the dynamic...

        And then I think of the extreme view in some Muslim countries around theft... and I just cannot get myself to go there...
        In the case of a 'mass shooter', they often don't give a flyin' flip about laws or consequences, because they often plan on "going out in a blaze of glory", and there is nobody to prosecute.
        The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Mountain Man View Post
          I had considered that, but you would need to strictly define "negligent". For example, is it negligent to keep a gun unsecured in your own home? When I was growing up, my dad had a shotgun that he kept disassembled in a closet (he only used it for hunting). If someone broke into our house and stole it, would my dad have been guilty of negligence?
          Today, possibly. Breaking it down helps. Storing the parts in different places would be better. Locking it in a gun locker would be best.
          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
            From what I know of the available data - they simply bring them in from locations where they are not banned - or they obtain them illegally.
            EGGzackly. And I don't think there's even a snowball's chance in the hot place that all other countries will stop manufacturing and shipping guns. Do you have any idea, for example, how many countries and manufacturers are licensed to produce the AK-47?
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              Compassionate conservative.
              At the risk of being disrespectful...

              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              We can't even make men take responsibility for their own families, let alone, others.
              Sadly, true enough...

              Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
              "Some slack"? In the case of a stolen car, if the owner reported it stolen prior to it being used in the commission of a crime, he's blameless. (Unless, of course, there's some fraud, which happens)
              Agreed. If someone reported the theft of a gun, then they should get credit for that. Beyond that, I am finding myself struggling. If someone steals my car because I leave the keys under the seat (as I do) and then uses it to commit a crime, should I be held liable? I want to say no. I refuse to lock up my car because I refuse to live in a state of fear. That is a life choice. Now if I translate that to a gun I might own, am I more liable? I want to say "yes!" but I am not finding a rational to justify that largely emotional response.
              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                Agreed. If someone reported the theft of a gun, then they should get credit for that. Beyond that, I am finding myself struggling. If someone steals my car because I leave the keys under the seat (as I do) and then uses it to commit a crime, should I be held liable? I want to say no. I refuse to lock up my car because I refuse to live in a state of fear. That is a life choice. Now if I translate that to a gun I might own, am I more liable? I want to say "yes!" but I am not finding a rational to justify that largely emotional response.
                But, as we have discussed before, there are notable differences between gun and vehicles, and gun and vehicle ownership and/or registration.
                The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Thanks for opinions on my question, folks. I'll bow out now.



                  Securely anchored to the Rock amid every storm of trial, testing or tribulation.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                    I have to admit this argument always perplexes me. It seems to suggest "because criminals can get arms illegally, we should not bother doing anything to stop them getting them legally." Are you really trying to make tat argument, or am I misunderstanding you?
                    You are misunderstanding me.

                    We already have regulations on guns. They ain't working. But I am all for having some regulations and doing some good. Adrift proposes banning some or all guns from everyone. He thinks that way they will eventually go out of circulation (as cops take them off the streets from criminals they catch) - only a total ban would even start to accomplish that because you have to make sure there is no fresh supply.

                    My point is that even if you could accomplish that, there are still a LOT of guns out there. It would take a long time. And you would just increase the profitability of gun smugglers to traffick in guns from other countries that don't have a ban. Like countries in middle and south america.

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                      So, let's go there. Do you, personally, support a gun ban in any form?
                      I cannot support anything without data. My gut tells me "fewer guns - less gun violence." My gut tells me "lower capacity magazines, less harm done." My gut tells me "eliminate all automatic and semi-automatic weapons, less harm done." but my gut has been wrong on more than one occasion. We need the studies - but we cannot get them in the current climate - so I am left...somewhat rudderless.
                      The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                      I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                        EGGzackly. And I don't think there's even a snowball's chance in the hot place that all other countries will stop manufacturing and shipping guns. Do you have any idea, for example, how many countries and manufacturers are licensed to produce the AK-47?
                        This is an old story but I'm sure it still the case:

                        ILLEGAL FIREARMS IMPORTED FROM CHINA, U.S. REPORTS

                        https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.9cd3ae613a96
                        Atheism is the cult of death, the death of hope. The universe is doomed, you are doomed, the only thing that remains is to await your execution...

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jbnueb2OI4o&t=3s

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Cow Poke View Post
                          I'm like that.
                          The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                          I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by carpedm9587 View Post
                            At the risk of being disrespectful...
                            I am a compassionate conservative. Otherwise, I wouldn't have spent the last three months trying to redeem the helpless homeless man I've been working with, or be as involved in "street ministry" as I am.
                            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              First that would take a ban on ALL guns, maybe on gun manufacturing. And it would take a LONG time, because there are a lot of guns out there. And other countries make guns and have them too. You would basically just be increasing the cost of illegal guns, and making them a precious commodity for gun runners and smugglers. Like trying to ban narcotics.

                              It just isn't reasonable. It is a lot more reasonable to maximize the punishment for those who misuse guns to the point that the criminals might think twice about using a gun during a burglary or other crime. I understand most criminals don't expect to get caught, but enough of them have been caught and have records of multiple arrests and stops that they would be pretty leary about getting caught and having to spend say 15 years in jail for just having a gun during a crime.
                              If history shows us anything, it shows us that making certain things "illegal" simply feeds a black market for them. That doesn't mean everything should be legal, but it does mean we need to be careful about we do and do notmake illegal. It's not clear to me that "banning guns" is going to solve the problem. And there is a vast array of perfectly appropriate uses for guns. We need to find the strategy that will allow law-abiding citizens to own and use guns, while simultaneously minimizing the potential for them getting into the hands of those who are most likely to do harm.
                              The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King

                              I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by seer View Post
                                This is an old story but I'm sure it still the case:

                                ILLEGAL FIREARMS IMPORTED FROM CHINA, U.S. REPORTS

                                https://www.washingtonpost.com/archi...=.9cd3ae613a96
                                That pretty much supports what I was saying to Adrift

                                But he "doesn't agree"

                                Last edited by Sparko; 02-23-2018, 02:08 PM.

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