A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

[Jedidiah]

No, Jed, Adrift hasn't been the problem - you and I have. You want to pretend that it's okay to make fun of me like you did, fine - it does nothing for the sanity nor the civility of the conversation nor does it make me respect your position.

When did I make fun of you. If I seemed to, it was not so intended. Sorry for that misunderstanding. I don't suppose I will get a response, but . . .

[carpedm9587]

I am not ignoring my own thread - but I have been pulled off to deal with an urgent need by a client. I may be off for several day.

A quick glance suggests that the discussion is still proceeding civilly. Very cool...

[Cow Poke]

Troll

This is about me, isn't it?

[Cow Poke]

I am not ignoring my own thread - but I have been pulled off to deal with an urgent need by a client. I may be off for several day.

A quick glance suggests that the discussion is still proceeding civilly. Very cool...

Well... I'll try harder.

[Jedidiah]

The risk of demonizing people with mental illnesses is ever-present in this debate, and people tend to do so without a second thought.

Just the sort of thing I had in mind when I balked at the "mental illness" thing in response to Carpe. I do not trust the overall psych "industry" today, nor do I trust public understanding of it.

[Cow Poke]

I agree something needs to be addressed in regards to mental health but I'm not about to allow my rights to be curtailed when I am not a safety risk.

I knew "the system" was screwy, but I didn't really know how bad it was til I was dealing with the guy who was having all kinds of problems, but couldn't get help because he wasn't suicidal or homicidal. I literally had to go before a judge on his behalf and swear out a warrant for his arrest, then take him to MHMR to get the help he needed.

[Mountain Man]

And it WASN'T incorporated until a few years ago - which means for the vast majority of its history, it ONLY applied to the Federal government.

Yet gun control laws remain in effect - because the Court did NOT find - nor has it ever found - that the Second Amendment is a free pass for anyone and everyone to own whatever gun they like.

Yes, it's the law - but so are laws against jaywalking. If you don't understand the law, you cannot reasonably apply that law.

This will be the part where Jed who refuses to acknowledge laws he deems too complex will start arguing that he understands Constitutional law flawlessly and everyone else is a poopiehead.

I'm sorry... what? The 2nd Amendment wasn't incorporated until a few years ago?

Even Wikipedia is good enough for this one: "The Second Amendment (Amendment II) to the United States Constitution protects the right of the people to keep and bear arms and was adopted on December 15, 1791, as part of the first ten amendments contained in the Bill of Rights."

I don't think I've ever seen anyone argue that "the Second Amendment is a free pass for anyone and everyone to own whatever gun they like," and gun control laws are Constitutional as long as they are not unreasonable or prohibitively restrictive to the point that they infringe on the rights of law abiding citizens to bear arms. To that end, an outright gun ban or other excessive measure to curtail gun ownership would not be Constitutional.

[ke7ejx]

This chart suggests that guns are, by far, more effective than hanging,

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/means-m...case-fatality/paper on the subject

The problem with suicide by firearm is that it is far from foolproof. I could put a rifle in my mouth or position a revolver between my parietal lobe and temporal lobe and survive it. If I did die, it could be a slow and painful death or if I survived I would have permanent damage. Whereas, if I were to suspend myself from a beam by my neck and no one cuts me down or resuscitate me, I will die every time. That sounds far more efficient to me.

[Mountain Man]

The problem with suicide by firearm is that it is far from foolproof. I could put a rifle in my mouth or position a revolver between my parietal lobe and temporal lobe and survive it. If I did die, it could be a slow and painful death or if I survived I would have permanent damage. Whereas, if I were to suspend myself from a beam by my neck and no one cuts me down or resuscitate me, I will die every time. That sounds far more efficient to me.

I suspect most people think of suicide by gun as quick, painless, and foolproof.

But as Australia's statistics show, banning guns did nothing to decrease suicide rates, so like I said, including suicide by gun in these debates is a red herring at best.

[Adrift]

The problem with suicide by firearm is that it is far from foolproof. I could put a rifle in my mouth or position a revolver between my parietal lobe and temporal lobe and survive it. If I did die, it could be a slow and painful death or if I survived I would have permanent damage. Whereas, if I were to suspend myself from a beam by my neck and no one cuts me down or resuscitate me, I will die every time. That sounds far more efficient to me.

So, just to make sure I have this right, you're arguing that suicide by hanging is a more efficient form of suicide than suicide by gun? If so, you're going against the literature, particularly the linked Journal of Epidemiology & Community Heath, which points out that firearms are the most lethal suicide method. Also, the time that it takes one to make the noose, find a place to hang it, insure it's not too long or too short, and then suffocate from death (assuming the rope doesn't break, or the knot isn't tied wrong preventing suffocation) is quite a bit longer than taking a gun out of a drawer, putting it one's mouth, and pulling the trigger. As Gold pointed out, most suicides are impulsive, attempted in the moment. There's more than enough time in a hanging for someone to talk themselves out of it, or get interrupted mid-process. Not nearly as much with a firearm.

But I'm repeating myself here. Most of what I just stated above I've stated a few times throughout the thread.

[ke7ejx]

I knew "the system" was screwy, but I didn't really know how bad it was til I was dealing with the guy who was having all kinds of problems, but couldn't get help because he wasn't suicidal or homicidal. I literally had to go before a judge on his behalf and swear out a warrant for his arrest, then take him to MHMR to get the help he needed.

Blimey, that is screwy. Did it help?

[ke7ejx]

So, just to make sure I have this right, you're arguing that suicide by hanging is a more efficient form of suicide than suicide by gun? If so, you're going against the literature, particularly the linked Journal of Epidemiology & Community Heath, which points out that firearms are the most lethal suicide method. Also, the time that it takes one to make the noose, find a place to hang it, insure it's not too long or too short, and then suffocate from death (assuming the rope doesn't break, or the knot isn't tied wrong preventing suffocation) is quite a bit longer than taking a gun out of a drawer, putting it one's mouth, and pulling the trigger. As Gold pointed out, most suicides are impulsive, attempted in the moment. There's more than enough time in a hanging for someone to talk themselves out of it, or get interrupted mid-process. Not nearly as much with a firearm.

But I'm repeating myself here. Most of what I just stated above I've stated a few times throughout the thread.

Let's just say, I'm a results sort of person. If someone wants to end their life, they will. I could take away their gun and they'll reach for a noose, knife, pills, throw themselves in a river. It does not matter. All I'm arguing is that guns are not as foolproof as one would think. But you can make that as you will.

[KingsGambit]

Let's just say, I'm a results sort of person. If someone wants to end their life, they will. I could take away their gun and they'll reach for a noose, knife, pills, throw themselves in a river. It does not matter. All I'm arguing is that guns are not as foolproof as one would think. But you can make that as you will.

Undoubtedly this is true. What Adrift seems to be discussing is the person who is not quite as determined and might make an abortive attempt or a half-serious attempt.

I would like to see him respond to MM's claim that suicides did not drop following gun law changes in Australia, however.

[Cow Poke]

Blimey, that is screwy. Did it help?

I only did it because I know and trust the judge, the police officer involved, the specific counselor at MHMR, and we conspired together, but, yes, he was committed to a hospital where he spent a week getting his meds adjusted, and managed to get rid of all the imaginary cars and people that were chasing him.

I picked him up from the hospital, and he was a different man. We helped him find a job, a place to live, and he was doing great.

[Adrift]

I suspect most people think of suicide by gun as quick, painless, and foolproof.

But as Australia's statistics show, banning guns did nothing to decrease suicide rates, so like I said, including suicide by gun in these debates is a red herring at best.

As far as I can tell, that isn't accurate. Please see my post #398 where the data seems to suggest that overall suicide rates have been decreasing since the gun ban.