Originally posted by Adrift
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A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI made another proposal I'd be curious to know how it would be received: I wonder if people would not be a lot more careful with their firearms if the on-record owner of the gun faced the same penalty (or at least SOME penalty) as the person using it to commit a crime? Thoughts? (and yes, I know we lack the data for this as well).
Now if someone gave or sold him a gun knowing that he was planning to a commit a crime then certainly, they should be charged as an accessory.Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Making sentences for using a gun in the commision of a crime more harsh, longer and without possibility of parole, may or may not have a deterrence effect...but, if the sentence is long enough, it will definitely have a prevention effect...and since 57% of criminals reoffend (FBI stats) and are sent back to prison, then they are not in the "Free World" to commit another gun related crime."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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Okay, let's pretend libs-in-charge don't hate conservatives, also want to disarm them.
Also lets pretend libs care about in actual laws, also enforcing them.
Let's pretend libs care about why FBI, also sheriff, ignored reports. Also why deputy sheriff didn't help.
Let's pretend libs care about why school knew guy was threat but didn't report previous offenses of his to police.
Let's pretend libs care about why shooter, also others, get into suicidal murderous rage, about why he had no healthy relationship of family, religion, friends, community, women, why alienated.
Let's pretend libs care about why shooter, also others, often in therapy, also drugged.
Let's pretend libs care about fact that guns used a lot for self-defense, especially helpful for women.
Let's pretend libs care about fact that criminal gun violence mostly by gangs, minority gangs.
Okay, now let's have ''''''''''sane'''''''' discussion!!!Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.
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Originally posted by Mountain Man View PostThat's as stupid as indiscriminately punishing manufacturers and retailers if a gun they sold is used to commit a crime. Punish the guy who used the gun in a criminal fashion and not the innocent people who sold it to him, or who he stole it from.
Now if someone gave or sold him a gun knowing that he was planning to a commit a crime then certainly, they should be charged as an accessory.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostMaking sentences for using a gun in the commision of a crime more harsh, longer and without possibility of parole, may or may not have a deterrence effect...but, if the sentence is long enough, it will definitely have a prevention effect...and since 57% of criminals reoffend (FBI stats) and are sent back to prison, then they are not in the "Free World" to commit another gun related crime.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostMaking sentences for using a gun in the commision of a crime more harsh, longer and without possibility of parole, may or may not have a deterrence effect...but, if the sentence is long enough, it will definitely have a prevention effect...and since 57% of criminals reoffend (FBI stats) and are sent back to prison, then they are not in the "Free World" to commit another gun related crime.
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Originally posted by mossrose View PostWhich takes it back to my original question. Why is the cop always blamed and not the gun, but in school situations, it's not the shooter, it's the gun.
Racial issues may have a lot to do with it in a police situation, but I don't believe it's the entire issue.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostConsidering the number of illegal guns already in circulation among the criminal element, how do you think it would be a deterrent? Why would they stop using guns just because they were banned?The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostIn many jurisdictions, that's what the "aggravated" is in a robbery or theft. The addition of a gun 'upgrades' the offense, for example, from 'robbery' to 'aggravated robbery'. (Other factors are involved in 'aggravated', such as the difference between a burglary and an aggravated burglary - the latter being, for example, the burglary of an occupied building or home)
I'm really rethinking this "automatic going to jail" thing - because I know what goes on "in jail". Somebody who makes a really stupid decision ends up in a place where they learn how to make even bigger stupid decisions.
I know of places where the model is: make restitution. So if the person murdered a father, they have to take financial responsibility for the family, etc. I don't know how practical that would be in the U.S., but I have to admit there is a sense of true justice to it.
Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI think, just like the owner of a vehicle that is used in a vehicular homicide - it needs to be shown that the owner was negligent in securing that vehicle. Same with a gun owner. Rather than being automatically culpable, there needs to be some evidence that he was negligent in securing or controlling the use of his firearms.
I'd even be 'for' the process to be more strict on the gun owner than the car owner, but we are still a nation of "presumption of innocence".The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostI'll go further - if somebody is negligent in the storage or control of their firearms, and they are used in the commission of a crime....Some may call me foolish, and some may call me odd
But I'd rather be a fool in the eyes of man
Than a fool in the eyes of God
From "Fools Gold" by Petra
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Originally posted by seer View PostI wish you guys would stop with this gun "violence" nonsense. When someone gets killed with a bat or knife do you call it knife or bat violence?
Second - I cannot say I see a problem with the term "gun violence." We are not talking about all violence - we are talking about violence related to firearms. "Gun violence" would seem an appropriate descriptor. If we were talking about violence asociated with knoves, we would probably call it "knife violence."
However, in the spirit of keeping this as agreeable as possible - if you have a serious issue with the term - propose another one. I cannot speak for everyone - but I can commit to using it myself.The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by Sparko View Postso if you got burglarized and someone else used your gun to commit a crime, you should go to jail? Does that sound fair to you?The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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