A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

[Sparko]

Used to be when a young kid was caught doing something wrong or stupid the judge gave him a choice: go to jail or join the Army.

[Sparko]

Are you advocating that we legalize drugs then? I have to admit that I find it absolutely fascinating to see people who typically are of a conservative bent, who years ago would adamantly not have been for the legalization of drugs, suddenly sort of soften on the issue when parallels are made to the nation's gun problem.

Also, our prisons are filled to overflowing with drug users. We have more people in prison than any other nation on earth. That doesn't seem particularly healthy for a society. While I agree that no solution will be 100% on this issue till Christ's return, other industrialized nations don't seem to have nearly the issues we have on this front.

no I was making a point that if you go after the symptom instead of the cause of the problem you will never cure it.

[Mountain Man]

You are misunderstanding me.

We already have regulations on guns. They ain't working. But I am all for having some regulations and doing some good. Adrift proposes banning some or all guns from everyone. He thinks that way they will eventually go out of circulation (as cops take them off the streets from criminals they catch) - only a total ban would even start to accomplish that because you have to make sure there is no fresh supply.

My point is that even if you could accomplish that, there are still a LOT of guns out there. It would take a long time. And you would just increase the profitability of gun smugglers to traffick in guns from other countries that don't have a ban. Like countries in middle and south america.

Plus, the US is a huge area with a lot of people and no easy way to isolate it. I have no doubt that any nationwide gun ban would only stop law-abiding citizens from carrying guns, and criminals would suddenly find themselves in a one hell of a "gun free zone". What could possibly go wrong?

[Mountain Man]

As I have mentioned like prohibition - or, more currently, the "war on drugs".

It's curious that in the war on drugs, liberals are taking the opposite approach of their stance on guns.

[Cow Poke]

Good point. I remember my grandfather telling me stories about how he used to go on vacation without locking the house and never thought twice about. These days, most people wouldn't even consider the leaving the house for 20-minutes without locking up.

Yeah, even though I don't have a "gun vault" per se, I have a "poor man's panic room" where my guns are kept locked up in a closet.

closet door.jpg

When the grandkids are here, that door is closed (automatically locks), when we're home, it is often ajar. Very simple solution, and I believe it would buy me some cred if somebody were to steal my guns and use them in a commission of a crime. (Of course, somebody would have to prove they came from my house)

[Cow Poke]

It's curious that in the war on drugs, liberals are taking the opposite approach of their stance on guns.

Liberals are not known for being consistent. Save baby seals, kill baby humans, protect baby eagles in the egg.....

[Adrift]

If you could find a solution to poverty and inner city gangs, you would eliminate most of the gun problems in the USA. Nobody ever goes after the cause of the gun violence, just the guns. That is what is so frustrating to most conservatives. Because like you said, to them guns are a part of life: Hunting, target practice, defense against wildlife or intruders. I think people go after the guns because they are an easy target (no pun intended) and they know that it is nearly impossible to solve gang violence, so why bother? but stuff like that is the actual problem, not the guns. The guns are a result not the cause.

As I understand it, most of the gun problems in the USA are due to suicide. I think both conservatives and liberals want to deal with root issues. I haven't seen any evidence that those who go after guns are not also interested in treating root issues.

[Cow Poke]

Used to be when a young kid was caught doing something wrong or stupid the judge gave him a choice: go to jail or join the Army.

We have judges in Houston who will give boys the option - go to jail or go to Miracle Farm!

[Adrift]

no I was making a point that if you go after the symptom instead of the cause of the problem you will never cure it.

True.

[guacamole]

Yeah, even though I don't have a "gun vault" per se, I have a "poor man's panic room" where my guns are kept locked up in a closet.

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When the grandkids are here, that door is closed (automatically locks), when we're home, it is often ajar. Very simple solution, and I believe it would buy me some cred if somebody were to steal my guns and use them in a commission of a crime. (Of course, somebody would have to prove they came from my house)

In all seriousness, that's an ingenious idea. Might need to build some such in the basement if I ever decide to become a firearm owner.

[Cow Poke]

In all seriousness, that's an ingenious idea. Might need to build some such in the basement if I ever decide to become a firearm owner.

It serves as a place to keep my weapons, AND a place for my wife to go and hide if somebody breaks into the house when I'm not home. There are guns and ammo in there, along with flashlights... she just needs to grab her cell phone and lock herself in. That door is a solid core door on purpose, and the handle "turns freely" when not 'engaged', so it's pretty durn difficult to get that door open. PLUS, that 2'0" closet door is behind the 3'0' bathroom door, so, unless you're looking for it, you don't even know it's there.

[Mountain Man]

Liberals are not known for being consistent. Save baby seals, kill baby humans, protect baby eagles in the egg.....

To be fair, conservatives are also on opposite ends of the drugs/guns debate in that we want strictly regulated drugs and loosely regulated guns ("loose" in the sense that it should not be prohibitively difficult for a law-abiding citizen to acquire or carry a gun).

[carpedm9587]

right. Banning drugs didn't eliminate drugs because they didn't go after the root of the problem: People want to use drugs. As long as there is a market for them there will be illegal drugs. Guns are the same. As long as criminals want guns, they will get guns.

Agreed.

We have to go after the end user. If we can't change people's minds or get them mental help, we need to keep them off the streets or frighten them so much that they won't want to risk using guns on something. If they would get 3 years for burglary, but 15 if they had a gun, how many burglars do you think would risk using guns? Strict punishment probably won't work on mass shooters because like CP said, they don't expect to survive. We just need to stop them before they get to that point. Like take seriously all the warnings like they got with the Cruz kid.

I wish it were that easy. Unfortunately, before the event, knowing that someone will actually harm is a massively difficult thing to do. So I will share a personal story. My youngest son was the apple of Dad's eye. We did everything together. Fished. Took trips. Biked. When he had a problem, he always came to Dad. When I traveled, he would call me in the evening, after I had finished teaching, and we would keep the phone line open until I could hear him snoring. The phone bill got so bad, I got him a computer and setup Skype so we could connect. He didn't need to talk to me - he just needed to know I was there. Then some devil came into our home and stole the soul of that child. He turned into the ugly teenager. He was moody. He was angry. When he got angry, he broke things. They were always his things. I told him, several times, that I was not going to stand in the way of him breaking his own things, but if he ever crossed the line to breaking things that did not belong to him, we would have a problem. In hindsight, maybe that was not a good choice. Maybe I should have jumped on his tendency to break even his own things. I don't know. All I know is that his breaking escalated from small toys to $200 guitars to his $2500 drum set. Eventually, he did over $2000 of damage to our home and I fund myself standing in front of a very angry, very physically powerful, 17 year old with an axe in his hand. My authority won the day, buit when he started again the next day, I told him to stand down or I would call the cops. He didn't, and I did. Today, he is back in school, struggling to pull it together, but the anger is gone and we can talk again.

Each moment, I kept saying to myself, "but this is my son - the child I held - the one who had to have me on the phone for 3-5 hours each evening." Each day I told myself, "there is no way that child could truly harm anyone - he is just acting out. Today I look back and realize that, if he actually had harmed someone, I would have become one of those parents pilloried by the press and the world at large for "ignoring the signs." At each step, I took the course I believed wa sin the best interests of my son, my family, and the community. At each step, I could have been wrong.

I will NEVER stand in judgment of another set of parents, or a local community, that is trying to figure out what is the best way to deal with one of these people. We do the best we can to figure it out. Sometimes we get it right. Sometimes we get it wrong. It's "best guess" at any moment. I could just as easily have awakened to find my entire family killed - or never awakened at all.

I have to believe most of us take the warning seriously. We just don't always know exactly what to DO about them. And sometimes, there is not a lot we CAN do.

No solution will be 100%. We will always have crime and murder. Until Jesus comes back.

Agreed to the fomer. We (of course) part company on the latter.

[Cow Poke]

To be fair, conservatives are also on opposite ends of the drugs/guns debate in that we want strictly regulated drugs and loosely regulated guns ("loose" in the sense that it should not be prohibitively difficult for a law-abiding citizen to acquire or carry a gun).

Yeah, but I'm of that odd lot that thinks we need to focus more on the consumer than on the supplier. Not saying we shouldn't still try to stop shipments of drugs, but as long as there is a market... just like guns.

[carpedm9587]

I wrote the book!

(first liar doesn't stand a chance)

(kidding about the liar)

I actually DO teach that class...