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Thread: A Sane Discussion About Gun Violence

  1. #21
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    I think mostly because it doesn't sound like a reasonable response. Sentencing a first time offender to life, or threatening them with capital punishment for brandishing a weapon in which no one was harmed and no lives were taken would probably seem to the majority of US citizens as an unjust punishment. As well, there's lots of debate on whether or not there is any actual correlation between the length of a sentence and the deterrence of crime. Plenty of experts think there is not.
    I think a more proportional punishment is that individual forfeiting their right to own ANY firearms, for whatever period of time deemed appropriate. (along with whatever applicable penal remedies)

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  2. #22
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I'm not so sure that's a fair statement. I know it's not true of me.
    But how can that be? You've previously suggested that teachers be allowed to be armed, which is precisely the sort of thing I mean when I say "gun rights advocates believe that guns are the solution to gun violence."


    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    And, ironically, the more perception there is that guns will be outlawed or controlled - the more guns are bought and sold. The very discussion of controlling guns drives sales.
    Yep, I'm aware of that. It's a factor that seems to skew surveys on whether or not the rise of gun ownership has any sort of correlation to dropping rates of gun homicide. I think eventually something will give though.

  3. #23
    tWebber seer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    But how can that be? You've previously suggested that teachers be allowed to be armed, which is precisely the sort of thing I mean when I say "gun rights advocates believe that guns are the solution to gun violence."
    I wish you guys would stop with this gun "violence" nonsense. When someone gets killed with a bat or knife do you call it knife or bat violence?
    God moves in a mysterious way His wonders to perform; He plants his footsteps in the sea, And rides upon the storm. You fearful saints fresh courage take, The clouds you so much dread are great with mercy, and shall break In blessings on your head. Judge not the Lord by your feeble sense, But trust him for his grace; Behind a frowning providence He hides a smiling face. William Cowper

  4. Amen Mountain Man, Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  5. #24
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    But how can that be? You've previously suggested that teachers be allowed to be armed, which is precisely the sort of thing I mean when I say "gun rights advocates believe that guns are the solution to gun violence."
    I love ya, man, but PLEASE stop distorting my position on this ... not "teachers" ... but SOME teachers. That's important. And it's not "THE" solution... there are many things that can and should be done.

    Yep, I'm aware of that. It's a factor that seems to skew surveys on whether or not the rise of gun ownership has any sort of correlation to dropping rates of gun homicide. I think eventually something will give though.
    I have to admit, I finally bought an AR-15 last week because I'm seeing this "more than ever" drive to ban "assault weapons". I trust me to own one - I don't trust bad people to own any.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  6. Amen RumTumTugger amen'd this post.
  7. #25
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I love ya, man, but PLEASE stop distorting my position on this ... not "teachers" ... but SOME teachers. That's important. And it's not "THE" solution... there are many things that can and should be done.
    I did not distort your position. The word "teachers", by itself, does in no way suggest "all teachers". I love you too bro, but I think you're getting really carried away about the lack of exacting adjectives. Nor have I anywhere indicated that you think that allowing teachers to be armed is the only solution. Just because I haven't detailed every nuance of your position doesn't mean that I don't know your position, or that I'm attempting to sneak in some other more nefarious meaning. I stand by the words I originally typed, and I think your views fit the description just fine.

  8. #26
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    I did not distort your position.
    I don't, for a second, believe you'd do that intentionally.

    The word "teachers", by itself, does in no way suggest "all teachers".
    Of course not, but it's quite different from "some" teachers, when that's consistently what I've claimed. The fact that I've made it very clear that it should NOT be "all teachers" would have me hope you'd honor that distinction on my part.

    I love you too bro, but I think you're getting really carried away about the lack of exacting adjectives.
    It's crucial - I do NOT want all teachers, or even a lot of teachers armed. It's very limited.

    Nor have I anywhere indicated that you think that allowing teachers to be armed is the only solution. Just because I haven't detailed every nuance of your position doesn't mean that I don't know your position, or that I'm attempting to sneak in some other more nefarious meaning. I stand by the words I originally typed, and I think your views fit the description just fine.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  9. #27
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    Of course not, but it's quite different from "some" teachers, when that's consistently what I've claimed. The fact that I've made it very clear that it should NOT be "all teachers" would have me hope you'd honor that distinction on my part.
    You do realize that "teachers", by itself, is a general term, correct? It can refer to more than 1 teacher, it can refer to some teachers, it can refer to all teachers, it can refer to trained teachers, it can refer to un-trained teachers. The word itself is completely neutral. Using the general term "teachers" is perfectly fine and normal language in describing your view. It does not at all, in any way, shape or form, distort your position either intentionally or non-intentionally. You're honestly making much ado about nothing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    It's crucial - I do NOT want all teachers, or even a lot of teachers armed. It's very limited.
    Nor have I stated otherwise. None the less, you have suggested armed teachers, which fits perfectly with my view that gun rights advocates believe that guns are the solution to gun violence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cow Poke View Post
    I honestly don't know what the issue is here. You were frustrated in another thread for similar reasons, and it didn't make much sense there either.

  10. Amen Teallaura amen'd this post.
  11. #28
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adrift View Post
    I think mostly because it doesn't sound like a reasonable response. Sentencing a first time offender to life, or threatening them with capital punishment for brandishing a weapon in which no one was harmed and no lives were taken would probably seem to the majority of US citizens as an unjust punishment. As well, there's lots of debate on whether or not there is any actual correlation between the length of a sentence and the deterrence of crime. Plenty of experts think there is not.
    Well if the punishment was harsh then they would make sure NOT to carry a gun around while committing a crime, right? Isn't that a better solution than punishing all citizens with gun controls that are really only meant to stop a small percent of the population from using guns to commit crimes? At least you are only punishing those who actually DO use guns in crimes.

    The bigger problem is that we keep letting the criminals OUT of prison because of "overcrowding"

  12. #29
    Troll Magnet Sparko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpedm9587 View Post
    I do believe that the penalty for any crime should be "enhanced" if it is conducted using a gun. Mandatory incarceration. Extended prison term (50% more? 100% more?). No option for probation. Etc. However, I just saw Adrift's response and realize, as I write this, that we lack the data to tell us if any of this would actually make a difference. It seems common sense, but we need to study it to know more.

    I made another proposal I'd be curious to know how it would be received: I wonder if people would not be a lot more careful with their firearms if the on-record owner of the gun faced the same penalty (or at least SOME penalty) as the person using it to commit a crime? Thoughts? (and yes, I know we lack the data for this as well).
    so if you got burglarized and someone else used your gun to commit a crime, you should go to jail? Does that sound fair to you?

  13. Amen RumTumTugger, Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  14. #30
    tWebber Adrift's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sparko View Post
    Well if the punishment was harsh then they would make sure NOT to carry a gun around while committing a crime, right? Isn't that a better solution than punishing all citizens with gun controls that are really only meant to stop a small percent of the population from using guns to commit crimes? At least you are only punishing those who actually DO use guns in crimes.

    The bigger problem is that we keep letting the criminals OUT of prison because of "overcrowding"
    Only if it's an actual deterrent, but I mentioned something about that in the post you're replying to.

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