A symbol is only as useful as what it communicates, and the symbolism of this particular flag has evolved over time. Trying to deny this evolution and insisting solely on its original meaning while deliberating ignoring the intention of most who use the symbolism now is obstinate. I remember one troll on a website I used to moderate who used the Nazi flag as his avatar. He insisted it was not offensive because of the ancient Indian meaning of the swastika. (I call him a troll because he really was; he made dozens of accounts and ended up getting the website shut down.)
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Seattle Residents Complained About A 'Confederate Flag.'
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"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostNo, it's not. There is no Confederacy - how the heck can it have a new flag?
Considering that they are tearing down monuments and smearing people who aren't even actually displaying the stupid thing yeah, actually knowing what the thing you are taking such offence to IS a major point. The idiots in the OP actually called the media. The writer of the article, presumably a reporter, misidentified it even further as the Stars and Bars, which actually WAS the Confederate flag! It's like accusing the Republic of Trinidad and Tobago of being Nazis because their flag is red and black.
Yeah, if you're gonna be jerks about something you should at the very least know what it LOOKS LIKE. And since the Civil War is a MAJOR part of American history, there is no excuse for Americans displaying this level of ignorance.
Also, while the Civil War was a major part of American history, what the Confederate flag looked like was practically incidental to that history, more of a historical curiosity than anything else. Might as well ask them to teach what color Lincoln's eyes were. Of course, this is again entirely besides the point.
Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostA symbol is only as useful as what it communicates, and the symbolism of this particular flag has evolved over time. Trying to deny this evolution and insisting solely on its original meaning while deliberating ignoring the intention of most who use the symbolism now is obstinate. I remember one troll on a website I used to moderate who used the Nazi flag as his avatar. He insisted it was not offensive because of the ancient Indian meaning of the swastika. (I call him a troll because he really was; he made dozens of accounts and ended up getting the website shut down.)
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostNo, it's not. There is no Confederacy....The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by KingsGambit View PostA symbol is only as useful as what it communicates, and the symbolism of this particular flag has evolved over time. Trying to deny this evolution and insisting solely on its original meaning while deliberating ignoring the intention of most who use the symbolism now is obstinate. I remember one troll on a website I used to moderate who used the Nazi flag as his avatar. He insisted it was not offensive because of the ancient Indian meaning of the swastika. (I call him a troll because he really was; he made dozens of accounts and ended up getting the website shut down.)
And it's okay to destroy monuments because they mean only what you want them to mean, right?
The reality doesn't matter - as long as you are happy with your misconceptions. Call the battle flag the Stars and Bars - hey, it's been a hundred and fifty years, doesn't matter, right?
Of course, that works for EVERYONE. Perception becomes reality - so if enough people 'believe' the Holocaust didn't happen, then it didn't, did it? The little details don't matter - but then, neither do the larger ones - your case rests on what people perceive - that will be just as true for small details as large. Perception and symbolism matter; truth and reality don't.
Until it matters to you, of course, but then it's too late.
There were three flags that represented the Confederacy - and the Battle flag was not one of them. People were actually questioned for flying the Norwegian flag - which doesn't resemble EITHER the Battle flag or the three Confederate flags - is it really okay with you that we allow such ignorance to cause even mild harassment? What about when something happens and a mob goes on another rampage, destroying historical markers - when they attack a Norwegian home, will that be okay?
Or does truth matter?"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Cow Poke View PostJust keep thinking that.
It's stupid to say that states rights and economics weren't at the root of the secession - it's equally stupid to say that slavery wasn't, either. History, like modern politics, is a complex mixture of motivation, events, actions, power, and people muddling through the mess. It's part of why it MATTERS - understanding history helps us understand the complexities of our own time. It's why letting our education system degrade to the point where a major symbol from our history can be mistaken for a present symbol of someone elses. KG might be naive enough to believe that can't hurt anyone - but I'm not.
I'm dubious that even without the war slavery could have survived as an institution much longer - there are big economic barriers as the conversion to mechanization occurs. In modern slavery, we see a very different model than that of the US. I think it's stupid that Northerners disregard their own history with slavery - and appalling that they don't understand the forces that helped end it (hint: industrialization) - but that's no excuse for not facing it square in the eye in our own history. It was immoral - and economically unsound - and our ancestors did it anyway. Jefferson's wolf analogy hadn't been true for a century - and the vast majority of Southerners didn't own slaves - or even rent them. We could have ended it differently - but didn't.
Those lessons apply now, as well. A culture so afraid of being 'intolerant' that it tolerates even cruelty and oppression in the right circumstances - is not so different from a society that was so afraid of change that it tolerated enslavement of others and perpetuated it. The sad thing is that in trying to flee an unpleasant history, they're beginning to repeat it.
Which is part of why truth matters, even in tiny details."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostAll of that is wholly incidental to what I was saying. The Confederate battle flag is and was frequently used as a symbol of the Confederacy. Granted, it's silly to complain about someone displaying it when they weren't actually displaying it, but to say "it isn't the official Confederate flag! It was just a flag they used in battle!" which is what you are doing, is completely besides the point.
Also, while the Civil War was a major part of American history, what the Confederate flag looked like was practically incidental to that history, more of a historical curiosity than anything else. Might as well ask them to teach what color Lincoln's eyes were. Of course, this is again entirely besides the point.
."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostGive me a break. I'm proud of being a Southerner - but there is no Confederacy and we didn't win the war. The South has risen again - and is in the process of beating the North at its own game. Detroit is largely empty but factories are being built all over the South.
It's stupid to say that states rights and economics weren't at the root of the secession - it's equally stupid to say that slavery wasn't, either. History, like modern politics, is a complex mixture of motivation, events, actions, power, and people muddling through the mess. It's part of why it MATTERS - understanding history helps us understand the complexities of our own time. It's why letting our education system degrade to the point where a major symbol from our history can be mistaken for a present symbol of someone elses. KG might be naive enough to believe that can't hurt anyone - but I'm not.
I'm dubious that even without the war slavery could have survived as an institution much longer - there are big economic barriers as the conversion to mechanization occurs. In modern slavery, we see a very different model than that of the US. I think it's stupid that Northerners disregard their own history with slavery - and appalling that they don't understand the forces that helped end it (hint: industrialization) - but that's no excuse for not facing it square in the eye in our own history. It was immoral - and economically unsound - and our ancestors did it anyway. Jefferson's wolf analogy hadn't been true for a century - and the vast majority of Southerners didn't own slaves - or even rent them. We could have ended it differently - but didn't.
Those lessons apply now, as well. A culture so afraid of being 'intolerant' that it tolerates even cruelty and oppression in the right circumstances - is not so different from a society that was so afraid of change that it tolerated enslavement of others and perpetuated it. The sad thing is that in trying to flee an unpleasant history, they're beginning to repeat it.
Which is part of why truth matters, even in tiny details.
Also, as an aside, while Detroit is still quite the cesspit, it's actually coming back up slowly yet surely. I wanted to buy a home there a few years ago when the place was Armageddon, and you could get a non-gutted mansion for a buck, but it's not that way anymore. Lots of gentrification going on, especially downtown.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostTeal...I think CP was just kidding around, thus the smug face smile.
Also, as an aside, while Detroit is still quite the cesspit, it's actually coming back up slowly yet surely. I wanted to buy a home there a few years ago when the place was Armageddon, and you could get a non-gutted mansion for a buck, but it's not that way anymore. Lots of gentrification going on, especially downtown.
I'm aware that Detroit is recovering - but its strangle hold on car manufacture is dead. Detroit is emblematic of the conversion as the North loses its manufacturing superiority.
of course, that means if we DO have another war, the South would win. Personally, I vote against. Shooting each other is a stupid way to solve things."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostNot all jokes are funny - and the myth of the continuing Confederacy needs to die.
Originally posted by Teallaura View PostI'm aware that Detroit is recovering - but its strangle hold on car manufacture is dead. Detroit is emblematic of the conversion as the North loses its manufacturing superiority.
of course, that means if we DO have another war, the South would win. Personally, I vote against. Shooting each other is a stupid way to solve things.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostTeal...I think CP was just kidding around, thus the smug face smile.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Adrift View PostI get it, but I literally think he was doing a sort of silly sarcastic thing. Sorta like the brother doing a quick tug on the sister's pig tail and then running away. Most people, especially most people in the North, don't really think of the South as continuing the Confederacy. We see the South as part of the family that we get to tease sometimes for their funny accents, and they get to tease us for our bland food, and cold weather.
You remind me of an effort several years ago to get rid of Hogan's Heroes TV series by a bunch of well-meaning folks who thought it denigrated the tough time POWs had in the hands of the Germans. Veteran POWs overwhelmingly quashed that, saying they enjoyed it, and kind of an "if you don't laugh you'll cry" kind of attitude.The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostNot all jokes are funny - and the myth of the continuing Confederacy needs to die.
sheeeesh!The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostSo it's perfectly fair to take offence at the Norwegian flag - it's the symbolism perceived that matters, right?
And it's okay to destroy monuments because they mean only what you want them to mean, right?
The reality doesn't matter - as long as you are happy with your misconceptions. Call the battle flag the Stars and Bars - hey, it's been a hundred and fifty years, doesn't matter, right?
Of course, that works for EVERYONE. Perception becomes reality - so if enough people 'believe' the Holocaust didn't happen, then it didn't, did it? The little details don't matter - but then, neither do the larger ones - your case rests on what people perceive - that will be just as true for small details as large. Perception and symbolism matter; truth and reality don't.
Until it matters to you, of course, but then it's too late.
There were three flags that represented the Confederacy - and the Battle flag was not one of them. People were actually questioned for flying the Norwegian flag - which doesn't resemble EITHER the Battle flag or the three Confederate flags - is it really okay with you that we allow such ignorance to cause even mild harassment? What about when something happens and a mob goes on another rampage, destroying historical markers - when they attack a Norwegian home, will that be okay?
Or does truth matter?"I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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Originally posted by Terraceth View PostAll of that is wholly incidental to what I was saying. The Confederate battle flag is and was frequently used as a symbol of the Confederacy. Granted, it's silly to complain about someone displaying it when they weren't actually displaying it, but to say "it isn't the official Confederate flag! It was just a flag they used in battle!" which is what you are doing, is completely besides the point.
Also, while the Civil War was a major part of American history, what the Confederate flag looked like was practically incidental to that history, more of a historical curiosity than anything else. Might as well ask them to teach what color Lincoln's eyes were. Of course, this is again entirely besides the point.
While I'm sure this person was being a troll, I should point out that it isn't just an ancient Indian meaning, as it's still used in the present as a symbol (usually religious in nature) in Asia with no Nazi connection. I remember that when the EU tried to put in a ban on swastikas, Hindu groups opposed the measure because they used it as a religious symbol."I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill
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