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Thread: Billy Graham and Jews, Christianity and Judaism

  1. #11
    Theologyweb's Official Grandfather Jedidiah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    How common are those ideas today?

    Mel Gibson's infamous tirade basically covered the same ground as Graham's. So it is not a relic of the past, conspiracy theories abound today. And many theories posit a group of Jews as a guiding hand in history.

    I will repeat myself, I think Graham very likely repented of his comments. Not sure if his comments were a mirroring of other's (Nixon's) views, or an idea he held and embraced. But it is possible that he held those views, they were common in America in the mid twentieth century.
    Then why bring him into the discussion?

    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I think it represents a unique form of anti-Semitism, the acceptance of jewish conspiracy theory, along with the support of Israel, which is in effect a mixture of anti- and philo- Semitism. Jewish conspiracy theories are generally condemned as anti-Semitism when expressed outside of a Christian context. But when they are expressed within a context of biblical Christianity which recognizes a role for Israel in eschatology, the conspiracy theory is not seen as anti-Semitic.

    Maybe it comes down to what is the role of the Body of Christ in addressing anti-Semitism. So I can rephrase the OP with the question: Should we send our children to a vacation bible school if our goal is to have them grow up rejecting Jewish conspiracy theories?. We would not send them to a camp run by some supremacist group because of a desire to isolate our children from such ideas. But would allowing children to attend a bible school program at a local church make it more likely or less likely that they would grow up accepting ideas of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy?
    This question is acceptable with no need to try to drag in Graham.
    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

  2. #12
    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Then why bring him into the discussion?


    This question is acceptable with no need to try to drag in Graham.
    I do think that it is proper to bring in Billy Graham on this discussion, he is an important figure in the faith in the US. Maybe a part of the discussion ought to include the reasons why he held those views.

    Why do you think Graham held such views that he was later appalled at the very words he uttered?

  3. #13
    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I do think that it is proper to bring in Billy Graham on this discussion, he is an important figure in the faith in the US. Maybe a part of the discussion ought to include the reasons why he held those views.

    Why do you think Graham held such views that he was later appalled at the very words he uttered?
    People change and grow. We live in a totally different world than we did "back then".

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

  4. Amen Jedidiah amen'd this post.
  5. #14
    Evolution is God's ID rogue06's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    I do think that it is proper to bring in Billy Graham on this discussion, he is an important figure in the faith in the US. Maybe a part of the discussion ought to include the reasons why he held those views.

    Why do you think Graham held such views that he was later appalled at the very words he uttered?
    While I understand that you may possibly be coming at this from a historical approach or wanting to use this to introduce a broader point, the reactions you have received really ought to have clued you into the simple fact that considering that Graham has not even been been laid to rest yet these questions are in bad taste.

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  6. Amen Cow Poke, DesertBerean amen'd this post.
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    tWebber NorrinRadd's Avatar
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    1) The question does not bother me at all. I have general respect for Graham, but zero of the common hero worship he evokes, and zero sense of "Never speak ill of the dead."

    2) Since the construction of the article doesn't make clear whether he was referring all Jews, most Jews, or only "liberal" Jews, I find his comments unfortunate, but not "scurrilous."

    3) I am not at all familiar with any attitude of that sort among "my" people -- Evangelicals -- in my 38 years as a believer. I have heard some of the older generation of my Lutheran relatives say such things as, "Show me a problem, I'll show you a Jew behind it."
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    Professor KingsGambit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    1) The question does not bother me at all. I have general respect for Graham, but zero of the common hero worship he evokes, and zero sense of "Never speak ill of the dead."

    I generally agree. But Billy Graham doesn't have to be involved, either. There is a conversation that needs to be had with what we as Christians do with passages like Revelation 3:9, which were historically used by Christians in the Middle Ages to justify pogroms against Jewish communities.
    For what was given to everyone for the use of all, you have taken for your exclusive use. The earth belongs not to the rich, but to everyone. - Ambrose, 4th century AD

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jedidiah View Post
    Then why bring him into the discussion?


    This question is acceptable with no need to try to drag in Graham.
    Because Graham is generally respected, and can be an example to model. A discussion without Graham as an example would be not be productive, most place such things as anti-Semitism into some category of "things other people, bad people do". To accept the possibility that others do take on the ideas of anti-Semitism is unthinkable, because the "others" are committed Christians, born again and on fire for the Lord. While some do deny Graham's faith, there are not many who do contend that Graham is not a Christian; so the discussion has a starting point of a respected Christian who did hold those views.

    Repentance denotes a change of heart, the things one held closely before repentance is different than after. Which is why scripture places a special emphasis on metanoia.

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    tWebber
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    Quote Originally Posted by demi-conservative View Post
    Only thing that matters is whether ideas are true or not.



    Demi has related question: Should we send our children to lib college if our goal is to have them grow up rejecting lib dogma?
    An excellent question, Demi, even if it is unintentionally counterproductive. Many do avoid the typically liberal and secular college for a religious education, in order to avoid inculcating our children with secular values.

    So, if we use the same reasoning, should a nonbeliever allow his children to go to a vacation Bible school? Few will openly say "I want my children to grow up rejecting anti-Semitic ideas", that sentiment is taken for granted and unspoken. But if the one place those anti-Semitic ideas are accepted is the same place that one is often introduced to the gospel message, then we have two competing principles: the principle of faith as an ultimate good, and anti-Semitic ideas as a moral evil.

    Should we accept the moral evil as long as it is accompanied by the moral good?

  11. #19
    tWebber demi-conservative's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by simplicio View Post
    Many do avoid the typically liberal and secular college for a religious education, in order to avoid inculcating our children with secular values.
    Many do not.

    So, if we use the same reasoning, should a nonbeliever allow his children to go to a vacation Bible school? Few will openly say "I want my children to grow up rejecting anti-Semitic ideas", that sentiment is taken for granted and unspoken. But if the one place those anti-Semitic ideas are accepted is the same place that one is often introduced to the gospel message, then we have two competing principles: the principle of faith as an ultimate good, and anti-Semitic ideas as a moral evil.
    Demi does not understand why you are hanged up on bible school and anti-semitism, also does not see link.
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    See, the Thing is... Cow Poke's Avatar
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    Some very powerful preaching, sharing and testimonies during the memorial service.

    1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

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