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Billy Graham and Jews, Christianity and Judaism

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  • #16
    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
    1) The question does not bother me at all. I have general respect for Graham, but zero of the common hero worship he evokes, and zero sense of "Never speak ill of the dead."

    I generally agree. But Billy Graham doesn't have to be involved, either. There is a conversation that needs to be had with what we as Christians do with passages like Revelation 3:9, which were historically used by Christians in the Middle Ages to justify pogroms against Jewish communities.
    "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
      Then why bring him into the discussion?


      This question is acceptable with no need to try to drag in Graham.
      Because Graham is generally respected, and can be an example to model. A discussion without Graham as an example would be not be productive, most place such things as anti-Semitism into some category of "things other people, bad people do". To accept the possibility that others do take on the ideas of anti-Semitism is unthinkable, because the "others" are committed Christians, born again and on fire for the Lord. While some do deny Graham's faith, there are not many who do contend that Graham is not a Christian; so the discussion has a starting point of a respected Christian who did hold those views.

      Repentance denotes a change of heart, the things one held closely before repentance is different than after. Which is why scripture places a special emphasis on metanoia.

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
        Only thing that matters is whether ideas are true or not.



        Demi has related question: Should we send our children to lib college if our goal is to have them grow up rejecting lib dogma?
        An excellent question, Demi, even if it is unintentionally counterproductive. Many do avoid the typically liberal and secular college for a religious education, in order to avoid inculcating our children with secular values.

        So, if we use the same reasoning, should a nonbeliever allow his children to go to a vacation Bible school? Few will openly say "I want my children to grow up rejecting anti-Semitic ideas", that sentiment is taken for granted and unspoken. But if the one place those anti-Semitic ideas are accepted is the same place that one is often introduced to the gospel message, then we have two competing principles: the principle of faith as an ultimate good, and anti-Semitic ideas as a moral evil.

        Should we accept the moral evil as long as it is accompanied by the moral good?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by simplicio View Post
          Many do avoid the typically liberal and secular college for a religious education, in order to avoid inculcating our children with secular values.
          Many do not.

          So, if we use the same reasoning, should a nonbeliever allow his children to go to a vacation Bible school? Few will openly say "I want my children to grow up rejecting anti-Semitic ideas", that sentiment is taken for granted and unspoken. But if the one place those anti-Semitic ideas are accepted is the same place that one is often introduced to the gospel message, then we have two competing principles: the principle of faith as an ultimate good, and anti-Semitic ideas as a moral evil.
          Demi does not understand why you are hanged up on bible school and anti-semitism, also does not see link.
          Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

          Comment


          • #20
            Some very powerful preaching, sharing and testimonies during the memorial service.
            The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
              I generally agree. But Billy Graham doesn't have to be involved, either. There is a conversation that needs to be had with what we as Christians do with passages like Revelation 3:9, which were historically used by Christians in the Middle Ages to justify pogroms against Jewish communities.
              Well ok, I don't see that one as being as relevant as John 8, where Jesus Himself says TO JEWS that any who do not believe Him to be I AM will die in their sins, or Rom. 11, where Paul says they are enemies in regard to the Gospel.

              Unpalatable as it may be, Christianity is exclusionary, and even Jews, who are in a sense our kin, are damned if they do not become part of the New Covenant.
              Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

              Beige Federalist.

              Nationalist Christian.

              "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

              Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

              Proud member of the this space left blank community.

              Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

              Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

              Justice for Matthew Perna!

              Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                Well ok, I don't see that one as being as relevant as John 8, where Jesus Himself says TO JEWS that any who do not believe Him to be I AM will die in their sins, or Rom. 11, where Paul says they are enemies in regard to the Gospel.

                Unpalatable as it may be, Christianity is exclusionary, and even Jews, who are in a sense our kin, are damned if they do not become part of the New Covenant.
                ? Recognizing that all non believers are condemned is not antisemitism.
                Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                  ? Recognizing that all non believers are condemned is not antisemitism.
                  Tell Jews that, as a Christian, you believe they stand condemned unless they convert. You don't think they will regard that as antisemitic?
                  Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                  Beige Federalist.

                  Nationalist Christian.

                  "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                  Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                  Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                  Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                  Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                  Justice for Matthew Perna!

                  Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by NorrinRadd View Post
                    Tell Jews that, as a Christian, you believe they stand condemned unless they convert. You don't think they will regard that as antisemitic?
                    If I apply it to all non Christians, they are simply wrong.
                    Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                      If I apply it to all non Christians, they are simply wrong.
                      Fair point.

                      They would likely be offended at being lumped with all other infidels, but that is not the same as saying there is something *especially* faithless or otherwise wrong about them.
                      Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

                      Beige Federalist.

                      Nationalist Christian.

                      "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

                      Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

                      Proud member of the this space left blank community.

                      Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

                      Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

                      Justice for Matthew Perna!

                      Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I took a course on the history of the Holocaust in college, from a Jewish professor with family who went through it. We looked at the history of antisemitism and some of the Bible passages which were explicitly used as justification for pogroms. On one of my papers, I noted that this was stupid because Jesus was Jewish. I got an A
                        "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by KingsGambit View Post
                          I took a course on the history of the Holocaust in college, from a Jewish professor with family who went through it. We looked at the history of antisemitism and some of the Bible passages which were explicitly used as justification for pogroms. On one of my papers, I noted that this was stupid because Jesus was Jewish. I got an A
                          No thinking person can in any way support antisemitism, or the distortion of scripture that may be used in such support.
                          Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Jedidiah View Post
                            No thinking person can in any way support antisemitism, or the distortion of scripture that may be used in such support.
                            You'd think so, but Martin Luther became almost violently anti-semitic late in life (advocating burning synagogues and destroying their houses), and I'd say he was a thinking person.
                            "I am not angered that the Moral Majority boys campaign against abortion. I am angry when the same men who say, "Save OUR children" bellow "Build more and bigger bombers." That's right! Blast the children in other nations into eternity, or limbless misery as they lay crippled from "OUR" bombers! This does not jell." - Leonard Ravenhill

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Let me amend my comment to say, "No thinking person today can in any way support antisemitism, or the distortion of scripture that may be used in such support." antisemitism was far more common then than now. Today a large number of unthinking folks are moving in the same destructive pattern that we saw in the past.
                              Micah 6:8 He has told you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                                Many do not.



                                Demi does not understand why you are hanged up on bible school and anti-semitism, also does not see link.
                                You are right, many do not send their children to a liberal college, and often the expressed purpose is to avoid inculcating those values.

                                If the church which has the vacation bible school is also a place where those ideas exist and go unchallenged, the ideas in effect become part of the backdrop of "acceptable ideas" which one can hold.
                                I go and keep friends with Mr Rosenthal. . . and people of that sort, you know. And all, I mean not all Jews, but a lot of the Jews are great friends of mine, they swarm around me and are friendly to me because they know I am friendly to Israel. But they don't know how I feel about what they are doing to this country. And I have no power, no way to handle them, but I would stand up if under proper circumstances.

                                Comment

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