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The “Sermons” of Jordan Peterson

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  • #31
    Originally posted by whag View Post
    If I was a Christian, I’d subsist on the taped lectures of psychologist Jordan Peterson for my sermons. Church is boring because the teaching portion is mostly intellectually unsatisfying. Most pastors can’t teach because they’re not original thinkers, and it’s easy to put together a sermon that cribs from your own past material (which often cribs from other published sermons and support material). Peterson isn’t afraid to acknowledge evolution and all its ugliness and extract interesting insights from it. That’s brave and it takes brains.

    There are no well-known intellectuals in Christianity today. The purported ones like Plantinga, Craig, Zacharias, and Moreland all have some kind of weird controversy in their pasts in which they stumbled on this issue. Heck, you even have R.C. Sproul who has affirmed his belief in young earth.
    I suppose it depends on how you define "well known" and "intellectual."

    I quite enjoy reading or listening to Craig Keener and Ben Witherington.

    Very few pastors are on that level. That can be a bit frustrating, but it's to be expected.
    Geislerminian Antinomian Kenotic Charispneumaticostal Gender Mutualist-Egalitarian.

    Beige Federalist.

    Nationalist Christian.

    "Everybody is somebody's heretic."

    Social Justice is usually the opposite of actual justice.

    Proud member of the this space left blank community.

    Would-be Grand Vizier of the Padishah Maxi-Super-Ultra-Hyper-Mega-MAGA King Trumpius Rex.

    Justice for Ashli Babbitt!

    Justice for Matthew Perna!

    Arrest Ray Epps and his Fed bosses!

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    • #32
      I am reminded of CS Lewis' quote about Jesus:
      I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by MaxVel View Post
        I agree with you that Dr Peterson has given some fascinating lectures, they're well worth a listen. He is a deep and complex thinker. I don't think that a direct comparison with church sermons is particularly valid or helpful however, as the purpose and the target audience are different. And there are few people indeed who can speak on Dr Peterson's level.
        I think that the purpose and audience for sermons is a bit ambiguous. Churches contain believers, but pastors must also speak to unbelievers in case they’re in attendance. Clearly, the fundamental purpose of a sermon is to enlighten and teach, or open one’s eyes to an extent. Most sermons I’ve heard aren’t particularly enlightening but are just rehashed versions of previous sermons.

        The MacArthur sermon on the Flood was a textbook case. Did you hear anything new in it or insightful? Mossy would like to think I dislike it because the truths are “unpleasant.” Nope, it sucks because it’s disengaging.

        Nothing can top the fright contained in a Peterson lecture. His assessment of culture, which implicates Christian and skeptics alike (because we’re all to some extent bad parents), is scary because it’s spot on. I could say that Mossy’d be convicted by listening to him—or worse, find something she’d agree with. The latter is more likely, but she’s not interested in hearing anything because he’s not Christian.

        You say that few can speak like Peterson, but I don’t know if that’s true in MacArthur’s case, or even needed. MacArthur is articulate enough, and I don’t think he’s stupid. Content is what’s missing, not well-spokenness (I realize not every pastor has that gift).

        Certainly, MacArthur could have said something much more interesting about the flood myth besides that it was global. Only in the most shallow sense did he apply it to people’s lives, and any of that could have been lifted.

        Peterson spoke for 5 hours on the Flood (it’s actually a two-parter), and pulled some very rich insights from a very rich story. MacArthur takes the more banal creationist route. Interestingly, that phenomenon of bad religious instruction and education—at least to some extent—has probably contributed to the failure of culture that Peterson often talks about.
        Last edited by whag; 03-02-2018, 09:22 AM.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Sparko View Post
          I am reminded of CS Lewis' quote about Jesus:
          I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. ... Now it seems to me obvious that He was neither a lunatic nor a fiend: and consequently, however strange or terrifying or unlikely it may seem, I have to accept the view that He was and is God.
          I’d be more concerned that a Peterson can write a more illuminating sermon on a major biblical topic than the most influential Calvinist televangelist in the world (I’m assuming). The trilemma doesn’t even come in here, though possibly could be relevant if Peterson engaged in anti-resurrection apologetics, which he does not.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by whag View Post
            I’d be more concerned that a Peterson can write a more illuminating sermon on a major biblical topic than the most influential Calvinist televangelist in the world (I’m assuming). The trilemma doesn’t even come in here, though possibly could be relevant if Peterson engaged in anti-resurrection apologetics, which he does not.
            I was reminded of what CS Lewis said when Anon said:

            Originally posted by thewriteranon View Post
            Peterson isn't a Christian, but he's a pretty good speaker and he has a lot of good advice for young men. As mentioned before, even though he's agnostic himself, he believes that the morality advocated in the Bible is ideal, so he has a lot of advice that steers young men onto that sort of value track.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by whag View Post
              Thanks. Here’s Peterson’s lecture on The Flood, which is 2 hours 30 minutes. Let’s come back and discuss which is more illuminating and applicable.
              Comment on video

              I love the guy, but it's been an hour and 15 minutes and I still haven't heard a single word about the **** ***** ark.
              Sad!
              Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                I was reminded of what CS Lewis said when Anon said:
                Ah okay. Thanks for clarifying. I respect that you were reminded of it, but the trilemma is too limiting. Even WLC doesn’t use the argument because it’s too simplistic and illogical as framed.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                  Comment on video



                  Sad!
                  It’s a two parter, and probably because it warrants a decent sized pre-amble rather than the shallow pop-up book treatment normally given in America’s churches.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by whag View Post
                    Ah okay. Thanks for clarifying. I respect that you were reminded of it, but the trilemma is too limiting. Even WLC doesn’t use the argument because it’s too simplistic and illogical as framed.
                    I find it accurate. If someone goes around saying what a great moral teacher Jesus is but doesn't believe Jesus is God, then he must think Jesus is either insane or a liar. Why would you listen to moral advice from a nutjob or a liar?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                      I find it accurate. If someone goes around saying what a great moral teacher Jesus is but doesn't believe Jesus is God, then he must think Jesus is either insane or a liar. Why would you listen to moral advice from a nutjob or a liar?
                      My dad was both a nut job (extreme bi polar) and lied on many occasions. People can be both and still dispense sound advice, which is precisely why God tells you to honor your parents no matter what. You can’t honor without listening.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by whag View Post
                        My dad was both a nut job (extreme bi polar) and lied on many occasions. People can be both and still dispense sound advice, which is precisely why God tells you to honor your parents no matter what. You can’t honor without listening.
                        I wouldn't trust the advice of someone who was delusional, which Jesus would be if he believed he was God and wasn't. And if he lied about being God and knew he wasn't, then he was just a con man, and you could not trust his teachings. Or if you think his apostles were just making up crap later, then they were the liars and you can't trust their writings.

                        I wouldn't trust Joseph Smith's original teachings or prophesies with a 10 foot pole, for instance, because he was a conman and a liar who claimed to be the prophet of God. And you can see by his actions what a conman he was.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by whag View Post
                          Church is boring because the teaching portion is mostly intellectually unsatisfying. Most pastors can’t teach because they’re not original thinkers
                          Like usual you got things wrong way. Job of pastor is not original thinking but to teach original faith, also doctrine.

                          Peterson isn’t afraid to acknowledge evolution
                          Brave!!!

                          and extract interesting insights from it
                          Like what??

                          There are no well-known intellectuals
                          What did Peterson do beside become substitute father for lost generation or two, get them to fix mess of life of theirs a bit?
                          Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by demi-conservative View Post
                            What did Peterson do beside become substitute father for lost generation or two, get them to fix mess of life of theirs a bit?
                            Originally posted by whag View Post
                            My dad was both a nut job (extreme bi polar) and lied on many occasions.
                            Noted!!!
                            Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Sparko View Post
                              I wouldn't trust the advice of someone who was delusional, which Jesus would be if he believed he was God and wasn't. And if he lied about being God and knew he wasn't, then he was just a con man, and you could not trust his teachings. Or if you think his apostles were just making up crap later, then they were the liars and you can't trust their writings.

                              I wouldn't trust Joseph Smith's original teachings or prophesies with a 10 foot pole, for instance, because he was a conman and a liar who claimed to be the prophet of God. And you can see by his actions what a conman he was.
                              I think that approach isn’t as effective as you think it is. But you make a good point that it can be applied to other religious figures, most of whom make wild claims but are sincerely believed anyway. In his biblical lectures, Peterson doesn’t emphasize literal belief as much as he does deconstruct the psychology that facilitates maturity. I’m guessing he’s surmised that to be more helpful than emphasizing literal belief in events like the Flood or the resurrection.

                              WLC acknowledged the difficulties of the argument.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by whag View Post
                                I think you should be more mystified why a person such as that would exist in the first place, psychologically speaking.
                                Older and slightly wiser lib, who wants fruit of Christianity, but not submission to Christ!

                                Intelligent, smart, also prof, but real fool.
                                Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return.

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