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Hypothetical. All guns dissapear. What happens?
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Originally posted by Roy View PostNext time some theist suggests I consider what will happen when I faced his deity after death, I'll refer him to youThe first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Littlejoe View PostFirst of all, I agree with you that a gun is usually the better choice, but MM IS correct that in certain situations, the knife wins. Myth Busters did a scenario where the person with the knife started within 21 ft of the gun. The knife won most of the time. Now, the parameters were a little sketchy the gun had to start holstered and the knife was already out, so, I would have liked to see them start with both holstered. Now, if the gun is out like the knife, then yeah, I think the test would have been different. Also, I carry my gun with one in the chamber...but the safety is on.
https://youtu.be/ckz7EmDxhtU
And YES, I'm cheating a bit here so I'll go on and concede that there are circumstances in which you would come out better with a knife (professional assassin being one) but I don't think that many would choose knife over gun if they are depending on it as a general weapon and not a specific encounter. After all, you wouldn't take a .22 to shoot elephants (unless you were feeling suicidal) if you knew you were going to encounter an elephant - but life doesn't always give us that much foresight. Expecting squirrels and ending up with a runaway elephant - there's no perfect way to prepare for every emergency.
I was taught to shoot but haven't picked up a gun in forty + years. Given something automatic with a (relatively) low recoil, I could likely fire it reasonably well with only a little practice. Could I take out an armory? Of course not. Could I kill a lot of people if I managed to get it into a crowded concert hall - you bet. I've actually trained with swordsmanship as well (hey, it's only been 27 years or so). It would take a LOT of practice and conditioning for me to reasonably use a knife as a weapon. Could I take out an armory? If making all the soldiers helpless with laughter counts, sure - otherwise heck no. Could I kill a lot of people in a crowded concert hall? Not unless they are all suicidal and start lining up submissively.
Gun control is about preventing misuse and intentional violence (and some negligence as well). it's about keeping as many as possible guns away from people who really either cannot handle them safely (toddlers, severely mentally ill) or really will not handle them safely (mentally ill, ill intentioned).
I don't agree that stricter gun control is necessarily the answer (there might be some areas of improvement) but uniform gun control is a necessary change. One set of Federal laws instead of a myriad of state and local ones. The 'knives kill people too' argument rings hollow - knives are rarely chosen as mass killing weapons for very obvious reasons. There are no drive by knifings. And since virtually no Western countries lack some gun control the 'lookie, they still have murders' argument is completely uncompelling.
But even gun abolition wouldn't stop school shootings unless it could be 100% effective - guns aren't the cause (they are a HUGE contributing factor to the death toll). We warehouse kids in their own age groups and wonder why we end up with something a little less onerous than The Lord of the Flies. We let them 'blow off steam' by killing virtual people. We treat the victims of bullying as if they should fix it themselves - regardless of how out of control the situation really is. We give them a world of media in which the hero is not terribly different from the villain. We wonder why it goes horribly wrong when they get a weapon and lash out.
Keeping them away from weapons for the intervening years while we try to fix decades of garbage is only one piece of the puzzle - but it is an important piece. Truth is, we will never know how many kids were just as willing to go on a rampage but were unable to obtain the weapons they needed. A lot, a few? No way to know - but if we don't start caring about the weirdoes and outsiders when they are young enough to help we're not gonna stop these killings.
End of rant - sorry for getting off track."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
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Originally posted by Sparko View PostBut you said:
And that means, "if you remove all existing guns it wouldn't make a difference because people would find ways to get new guns"
In six thousand years of human history, guns have only been around since the 14th Century and modern firearms don't appear until the 17th Century so it's not actually that far fetched."He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." - Jim Elliot
"Forgiveness is the way of love." Gary Chapman
My Personal Blog
My Novella blog (Current Novella Begins on 7/25/14)
Quill Sword
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I have to admit...I have lost all track of all dissussions in this thread...and have no idea how to respond to any of it...The ultimate weakness of violence is that it is a descending spiral begetting the very thing it seeks to destroy...returning violence for violence multiplies violence, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Martin Luther King
I would unite with anybody to do right and with nobody to do wrong. Frederick Douglas
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Originally posted by carpedm9587 View PostI have to admit...I have lost all track of all dissussions in this thread...and have no idea how to respond to any of it...The first to state his case seems right until another comes and cross-examines him.
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Originally posted by Teallaura View PostIf (in a hypothetical comic book world) you could only have one type of weapon in your entire life and knives were classified as weapons not tools (you get magic cutting thingies so you don't have to worry about knives as anything other than a weapon) which would you choose? The parameters allow for a halberd, of course, and we'll even separate knives and swords into separate categories for no readily apparent reason - but the idea is choosing a single type of weapon to use in a lifetime of possible encounters - or no encounter at all (it's not Mad Max). With no way to know what if any need you would have for it, would you choose a knife over a gun as a weapon?
And YES, I'm cheating a bit here so I'll go on and concede that there are circumstances in which you would come out better with a knife (professional assassin being one) but I don't think that many would choose knife over gun if they are depending on it as a general weapon and not a specific encounter. After all, you wouldn't take a .22 to shoot elephants (unless you were feeling suicidal) if you knew you were going to encounter an elephant - but life doesn't always give us that much foresight. Expecting squirrels and ending up with a runaway elephant - there's no perfect way to prepare for every emergency.
I was taught to shoot but haven't picked up a gun in forty + years. Given something automatic with a (relatively) low recoil, I could likely fire it reasonably well with only a little practice. Could I take out an armory? Of course not. Could I kill a lot of people if I managed to get it into a crowded concert hall - you bet. I've actually trained with swordsmanship as well (hey, it's only been 27 years or so). It would take a LOT of practice and conditioning for me to reasonably use a knife as a weapon. Could I take out an armory? If making all the soldiers helpless with laughter counts, sure - otherwise heck no. Could I kill a lot of people in a crowded concert hall? Not unless they are all suicidal and start lining up submissively.
Gun control is about preventing misuse and intentional violence (and some negligence as well). it's about keeping as many as possible guns away from people who really either cannot handle them safely (toddlers, severely mentally ill) or really will not handle them safely (mentally ill, ill-intentioned).
I don't agree that stricter gun control is necessarily the answer (there might be some areas of improvement) but uniform gun control is a necessary change. One set of Federal laws instead of a myriad of state and local ones. The 'knives kill people too' argument rings hollow - knives are rarely chosen as mass killing weapons for very obvious reasons.
Yes, knives are not chosen for mass killings, but they still are used to kill a lot of people one or two at a time...what continues to boggle my mind is all the attention mass shootings get when it's such a SMALL part of the overall death toll. Yet, the talk all revolves around banning or limiting access to "assault" rifles when according to the FBI UCR (table 12)There are no drive-by knifings. And since virtually no Western countries lack some gun control the 'lookie, they still have murders' argument is completely uncompelling.
But even gun abolition wouldn't stop school shootings unless it could be 100% effective - guns aren't the cause (they are a HUGE contributing factor to the death toll). We warehouse kids in their own age groups and wonder why we end up with something a little less onerous than The Lord of the Flies. We let them 'blow off steam' by killing virtual people. We treat the victims of bullying as if they should fix it themselves - regardless of how out of control the situation really is. We give them a world of media in which the hero is not terribly different from the villain. We wonder why it goes horribly wrong when they get a weapon and lash out.
Keeping them away from weapons for the intervening years while we try to fix decades of garbage is only one piece of the puzzle - but it is an important piece. Truth is, we will never know how many kids were just as willing to go on a rampage but were unable to obtain the weapons they needed. A lot, a few? No way to know - but if we don't start caring about the weirdoes and outsiders when they are young enough to help we're not gonna stop these killings.[/QUOTE]I don't want anyone to think that my arguments here constitute excusing guns deaths...I think the deliberate taking of another person's life, EXCEPT in the case of self-defense, is the lowest criminal act a person can do to another person. Robbing the person of life, and all it's potential is just reprehensible IMO. Yes, we definitely need to find the cause of these shootings and try to prevent them before they start...that should be one of our highest priorities.Last edited by Littlejoe; 03-24-2018, 10:47 PM."What has the Church gained if it is popular, but there is no conviction, no repentance, no power?" - A.W. Tozer
"... there are two parties in Washington, the stupid party and the evil party, who occasionally get together and do something both stupid and evil, and this is called bipartisanship." - Everett Dirksen
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